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martin
the meaning of life,,, what is it, why are we living, as individuals, as a species, as a global community.
is it simply survival and continuence of life, natures response to an acceptable environment, is it divine and spiritual, a stage in the cycle that is our being, is it meaningless, subject to the whims of imagination and circumstance???? anyone?
bluebear
It is all that and much, much more. But for you, it is precisely what you choose to make of it. Nobody else can make it for you.
Dan
the meaning of life is happiness
martin
ahh, but could someone explain it for me.
martin
i'm not happy, does that mean my life has no meaning
Dan
that means your aim is to find happiness
bluebear
[quote author=Dan link=board=5;threadid=3066;start=0#msg14996 date=1067059326]
the meaning of life is happiness
[/quote]

no, don't listen to Dan. He'll lead you astray. wink.gif

I wouldn't recommend aiming for happiness, since this leads to vanity and self-disgust.

There is more to life than happiness. Look for meaning in your inner vision, heart, and experiences. Look into yourself. The meaning is there. You must find it. You must create it. You must bring it to the surface of your consciousness.
Dan
[quote]I wouldn't recommend aiming for happiness, since this leads to vanity and self-disgust. [/quote]
I'm saying that the aim for happiness is the fundamental vector of life. Even you aim for happiness, Bleubear, whether you recognize it or not. Perhaps your understanding of this fact is incomplete, thus you conceive of this aim as a pretentious sideshow to be avoided

tsk, tsk...


8)
bluebear
no, I understood you, but I still maintain that aiming for happiness is a mistake that will lead to emptiness and self-disgust. We learn from experience, and thankfully, we can learn from other people's experiences too. But it has been my experience that aiming for happiness is misguided. Instead of specifically aiming for anything like happiness, why not simply engage in meaningful activity in the HERE and NOW? Self-less action is often meaningful, for example. Happiness will be yours, but in general, you should not aim for it, but instead focus on meaning. Our actions, perceptions, interpretations, and associations are all sources of meaning. In the end, meaning is something we create ourselves. If your life lacks meaning, then create some. Also, maybe investigating other sources (mental or physical fatigue, stress, boredom, etc..) would be useful for determining influences that may be dampening the meaning that you otherwise would experience.
Dan
I say you are describing how you aim for happiness. All that stuff you seek to do, all those moments that feel meaningful, all those pretensions you reject, all that is what you must do to be happy

smile.gif
bluebear
but still, happiness is not what I aim for. Read the biographies and, preferably, autobiographies of great men, and they'll, in general, tell you the same thing. Do you think they would all be lying? Do you think happiness was what they aimed for? Of course not, precisely because there is much more to life than happiness. If you're so keen about being happy, Dan, then why aren't you popping 10 prozac a day, or are you? ohmy.gif Maybe you have ulterior motives you'd like to share with us, hmmm?
bluebear
you know i was just joking about the prozac thing, Dan.

anyway, i'm off to dream of flying through lands of golden honey.

user posted image

Dan
for a person who speaks with such intelligence, I am surprised that you can't understand what I am saying. Maybe you can enlighten with some counter-examples to my claim? I would be happy to be informed

wink.gif

bluebear

"Well-being and happiness never appeared to me as an absolute aim. I am even inclined to compare such moral aims to the ambitions of a pig." -Einstein


That's right! The ambitions of a pig. wink.gif

There are many more examples I can come up with, but maybe another time.

zzzzzzz
Dan
I bet Einstein was more than happy to say that. Sweet revenge of a tortured soul, to denigrate the satisfied simpleton.

I remain unconvinced. I require more evidence


tongue.gif
martin
i am of the opinion that life, in general, has little meaning, happy or not, selfless or selfish, living in the here and now or trapped in the past, dreaming of the future, it matters not, we may convince ourselves that we have found happiness, or dream up a meaning for our life, but does it really matter, both are quite subjective, created by the indivudual, for the indivudual, and the days roll by, meaningful or meaningless, all the same.
jana t.
In my view, happiness is not something that you can have, but rather it is something quite ephemeral, quite fleeting and brief. It is a small and passing moment that we experience with recognition. And these small moments of happiness can only be recognized or seen by those who accept their nature. Those who seek happiness as an ends, as an extended and stable state that they can attain, well these people are not only destined for a lifetime of dissatisfaction...but also, in their preoccupation with this “ends of happiness” they risk becoming blind to the true moments of happiness that can be found so easily, if you are looking for them.

The meaning of life is to seek.
To seek those brief moments of truth, beauty, happiness, peace, glory, power or whatever it is that drives your soul.

Satisfaction is another issue.
I would suggest that satisfaction in a meaningful life depends on that which you have chosen to seek

The fact that you are all seeking answers to this question of life, suggests that your lives are all in fact, very meaningful.

But are you satisfied?
Dan
satisfaction is the road into happiness. If you feel satisfied, you are on track
bluebear
here's a little more food for thought:


"The foolish man seeks happiness in the distance, the wise man grows it under his feet."
-James Openhelm

"Happiness is not a goal; it is a by-product."
-Eleanor Roosevelt

"Happiness is like a butterfly: the more you chase it, the more it will elude you, but if you turn your attention to other things, it will come and sit softly on your shoulder."
-Henry David Thoreau

"For a long time it seemed to me that life was about to begin – real life. But there was always some obstacle in the way, something to be gotten through first, some unfinished business, time still to be served, a debt to be paid. At last it dawned on me that these obstacles were my life. This perspective has helped me to see there is no way to happiness. Happiness is the way. So treasure every moment you have and remember that time waits for no one. Happiness is a journey, not a destination."
-Souza

"Humankind is staggering blindly towards a crisis, enslaved by its material desires and the deluded belief that the aim of life is personal happiness. The aim of life should be contentment, or self-containment"
-Ray Parkin

"The aim of life is self-development. To realize one's nature perfectly - that is what each of us is here for."
-Oscar Wilde

"Many persons have a wrong idea of what constitutes true happiness. It is not attained through self-gratification, but through fidelity to a worthy purpose."
-Helen Keller

"The ultimate aim of life is victory over death."
-Swami Satyananda Saraswati

"The pursuit of happiness is a most ridiculous phrase: if you pursue happiness, you'll never find it."
-C. P. Snow

"At present human society is being misled by leaders who are blind, for they do not know the aim and objective of human life, which is self-realization and the reestablishment of our lost relationship with the Supreme Personality of Godhead."
-Swami Prabhupada

"These Fools imagine that desire and enjoyment are all the aim of life and (in their inordinate and insatiable pursuit of it) they are the prey of a devouring, a measurelessly unceasing care and thought and endeavour and anxiety till the moment of their death. "
-from Aurobindo's translation of the Gita

"The aim of life is to live it intensely, to be fully born, to be fully awake."
-Erich Fromm

"The aim of life is the intuitive realisation of the Self. For, the Self is the substratum for everything, the cause for everything, and the soul for everything."
-Swami Omkarananda

"The goal of life consists in the full realization of all human potential"
-Dilthey



Joesus
Life is the manifestation of Expression. What is the purpose? Because you can, or actually it is the nature of the creator. That ability of the creator to create is natural and therefore the most perfect state of being for the creator.
Definitions of meaning as applied to life is ego or the manifest mechanism that allows consciousness to experience itself. The further away from its source as the creator in knowing and being that, the ego identifies with its relative manifestation and becomes immersed not in its Self but in its outer manifestation.
Happiness in dualistic relative terms means to feel happy as opposed to sadness.
Bliss has been attached to a higher meaning of fulfillment that is achieved not from anything in life but from pure being. Being not the emotion or the experience or the expression but the Self in its form and function.
You can be happy or blissful in sadness and even anger if you are released from any judgment or condition that may be placed on the expression/life.
The human expression is not limited to anything other than the presupposed limitations you apply to yourself and life. This loss of awareness and inability to realize the Self as the creator leads to dual interpretation of happiness and sadness, sickness and health, anger and joy.
These separate identifications of being when united into a whole expression become less effective as the illusionary boundaries of expression when the conscious awareness rises above the idea of suffering within these associative limited realities.

Maharishi Mahesh Yogi was once asked if it wouldn't be more productive to feed the hundgry man rather than teach him how to be conscious.
His reply was if you teach him to be more conscious he becomes energized by his knowledge of Self and his objective approach to life, becomes more enabled to create as opposed to being a victim to circumstance and therefore becomes a 'Happy" hungry man.
It still makes me smile, the look on his face as he happily bounced in his seat telling the student the story in the university auditorium. smile.gif
jana t.
[quote author=Dan link=board=5;threadid=3066;start=0#msg15030 date=1067101141]
satisfaction is the road into happiness. If you feel satisfied, you are on track
[/quote]

In my view, if you are satisfied, then you have achieved a sense of arrival upon finding that which you have sought. (So for me, satisfaction comes when you arrive at your destination, rather than along the road to it).

If finding moments of happiness gives you that sense of arrival, then seeking moments of happiness (as one possible action that describes a meaningful life) does indeed bring you satisfaction, and you are satisfied with the meaning of your life.

In contrast, for example, if achievement of greatness or power does not give you that same sense of arrival, once you have found these things, then perhaps seeking these things (as other possible activities that describe a meaningful life) are misguided activities for you.

That is not to say that your life has no meaning if you are dissatisfied, but perhaps that which you have chosen to seek has rendered your efforts futile, because in finding them, you do not feel like you have found what you seek.

Dan
your appeal to many authorities still does not convince me. I find it ironic that so many of your authorities are actually interested being happy. Perhaps you are mistaking a superficial and temporary acquisition of happiness for what I am talking about. I agree with the implication of your authorities; finding true happiness is not an obvious endeavor

tongue.gif
bluebear
[quote author=Dan link=board=5;threadid=3066;start=#msg15036 date=1067105252]
your appeal to many authorities still does not convince me.
[/quote]

my appeal to authority was only to point out that we can learn from the experiences of others, and in particular, that we can learn from great men who would have us learn such things.

It's quite clear to me that the aims of life should be the realization of your latent potential, self-development, self-knowledge, self-actualization, expanding consciousness, meaning, and the realization of God and Truth. Happiness is a mere by-product that should not be aimed for. Self-satisfaction and contentment are temporary because our very nature is insatiable, pushing us ever upwards towards further self-development and self-realization. Self-satisfaction and contentment should not necessarily be expected during the white heat of one's life, but might be hoped for or expected at the dusk of one's life before death. There is no convincing me that happiness should be the aim of life. I've been there, done that, and I've learned that 'that' is not the way. There are much worthier aims in life, and I would have to concur with Einstein about happiness.




Dan
do you want to be happy? Do you find unhappiness satisfying?
Dan
[quote]There is no convincing me that happiness should be the aim of life. I've been there, done that, and I've learned that 'that' is not the way. [/quote]
so, basically, you weren't happy with your 'happiness' (i.e., you weren't actually happy) Maybe you had simply chosen a simplistic route to happiness and it failed. Ever thought of that? ???

bluebear
[quote author=Dan link=board=5;threadid=3066;start=#msg15039 date=1067106015]
do you want to be happy?
[/quote]

No. I experience happiness, as well as a range of other emotions, but I do not aim for them or make them my goals in life.
Dan
[quote]No. I experience happiness, as well as a range of other emotions, but I do not aim for them or make them my goals in life. [/quote]
I say that you experience happiness by pursuing your goals. In fact, this happiness is what gives your goals meaning
bluebear
[quote author=Dan link=board=5;threadid=3066;start=#msg15040 date=1067106207]
so, basically, you weren't happy with your 'happiness' (i.e., you weren't actually happy) Maybe you had simply chosen a simplistic route to happiness and it failed. Ever thought of that? ???
[/quote]

no, quite the contrary. I often found happiness if I aimed for it, but such happiness was invariably temporary and fleeting because I was aiming for the wrong thing in life. And I soon realized that such temporary happiness is emptiness and vanity, and it resulted in self-disgust, and so I sought for something more lasting, and what I found was that true, lasting happiness is a mere by-product of worthier aims in life, such as self-realization, self-development, and the realization of God, but happiness itself should never be made into the aim of life.
Dan
you said it right there, 'bluebear'!

[quote]I often found happiness if I aimed for it, but such happiness was invariably temporary and fleeting [/quote]
i.e., those ways of being happy invariably failed and you had to find a better way to happiness.
bluebear
[quote author=Dan link=board=5;threadid=3066;start=0#msg15042 date=1067106367]
I say that you experience happiness by pursuing your goals. In fact, this happiness is what gives your goals meaning
[/quote]

I would agree that happiness is a by-product of pursuing worthy goals, but nonetheless, it is not what I aim for, and it certainly is not what gives my goals meaning. What is happiness? It's a rather paltry emotion, little different from the sensations of pleasure and pain. There is little, if any, meaning in the experience of happiness alone as such.
bluebear
[quote author=Dan link=board=5;threadid=3066;start=0#msg15044 date=1067106723]
you said it right there, 'bluebear'!
i.e., those ways of being happy failed and you were no longer happy!
[/quote]

yes, but the fleeting nature of happiness holds, in general, for anyone who aims for happiness, as opposed to the more enduring happiness one experiences as a by-product of realizing worthier aims.
Dan
[quote]What is happiness? It's a rather paltry emotion, little different from the sensations of pleasure and pain. There is little, if any, meaning in the experience of happiness alone as such. [/quote]
I would say that you are simply jaded by your previous failures. Your denial of happiness as an end is really a denial of your old concept of what leads to happiness
Dan
[quote]as opposed to the more enduring happiness one experiences as a by-product of realizing worthier aims.[/quote]
why do you associate 'enduring' happiness with worthy aims? Is this just coincidence, or is 'enduring' happiness a necessary and desirable consequence of pursuing worthy aims?

methinks you value this 'enduring' happiness, it is proof that you are doing the right thing.


A life without happiness is not worth living
bluebear
[quote author=Dan link=board=5;threadid=3066;start=0#msg15050 date=1067107014]
I would say that you are simply jaded by your previous failures. Your denial of happiness as an end is really a denial of your old concept of what leads to happiness
[/quote]

What failures? I was very successful at attaining happiness when I actively sought it, but its nature was fleeting, and in the end, it was vanity. This holds, in general, for anyone who aims for happiness.

My denial of happiness as an end or as an aim to be sought for is based on my experiences, and in particular, on my experiences that a more enduring happiness results from seeking worthier aims in life. It is not a denial of my old concept of what leads to happiness, because the end itself, fleeting happiness, I rejected as worthless.
Dan
[quote]What failures? I was very successful at attaining happiness when I actively sought it, but its nature was fleeting,[/quote]
the fact that your happiness was 'fleeting' is evidence of your failure. What you were doing was finding unsustainable paths toward happiness, and when the happiness dried up you moved on
bluebear
[quote author=Dan link=board=5;threadid=3066;start=0#msg15051 date=1067107246]
why do you associate 'enduring' happiness with worthy aims? Is this just coincidence, or is 'enduring' happiness a necessary and desirable consequence of pursuing worthy aims?

methinks you value this 'enduring' happiness, it is proof that you are doing the right thing.
[/quote]

The simple matter is that I do not aim for happiness, and neither do I 'want' it. It is something that I experience, as a by-product, during my striving towards worthier aims. Happiness, whether fleeting or enduring, is in the end, vanity, emptiness, and meaninglessness. Meaning is not to be found in happiness, but is to be found in the realization of worthier aims such as self-development, self-actualization, and the realization of God and Truth.

If I suddenly became incapable of experiencing happiness, I would still strive towards and realize my worthy aims because happiness is of no consequence regarding the worthiness of the aims as such.
bluebear
[quote author=Dan link=board=5;threadid=3066;start=0#msg15054 date=1067107606]
the fact that your happiness was 'fleeting' is evidence of your failure. What you were doing was finding unsustainable paths toward happiness, and when the happiness dried up you moved on
[/quote]

such happiness that we aim for is always fleeting. It is not a failure. The same holds for you and for everyone. Try to prove me wrong.
Dan
[quote]My denial of happiness as an end or as an aim to be sought for is based on my experiences, and in particular, on my experiences that a more enduring happiness results from seeking worthier aims in life.[/quote]
you are contradicting yourself, 'bluebear'. First you say that your experience shows happiness to be no end, but then you say that your experience shows that you should aim for that which brings 'enduring happiness' (is this 'enduring happiness' not an end? If not, why is it a qualifier for 'worthy goals'?)
bluebear
[quote author=Dan link=board=5;threadid=3066;start=0#msg15051 date=1067107246]
A life without happiness is not worth living
[/quote]

I presume you're speaking for yourself. How sad!
Dan
[quote]such happiness that we aim for is always fleeting. It is not a failure. The same holds for you and for everyone. Try to prove me wrong.[/quote]
how about you prove it right instead of simply claiming it to be right
Dan
[quote]I presume you're speaking for yourself. How sad![/quote]
as opposed to happy?
wink.gif
bluebear
[quote author=Dan link=board=5;threadid=3066;start=0#msg15057 date=1067107810]
you are contradicting yourself, 'bluebear'. First you say that your experience shows happiness to be no end, but then you say that your experience shows that you should aim for that which brings 'enduring happiness' (is this 'enduring happiness' not an end? If not, why is it a qualifier for 'worthy goals'?)
[/quote]

Please do not intentionally misrepresent me. You're just arguing against a straw man now. tongue.gif I never said that you should aim for that which brings enduring happiness. What I said was that enduring happiness was a mere by-product of striving towards and realizing worthier aims. Enduring happiness is not an end and is not something to be aimed for. And I don't think it's necessarily a qualifier for worthy goals, but like I said, is a mere by-product, in general, though there's no reason to assume that every worthy goal will necessarily be associated with enduring happiness all of the time, though admittedly, my experience has been that striving towards and realizing worthy goals is invariably associated with enduring happiness. But it is not obvious that whether a goal is considered worthy or not is in any way dependent on whether striving towards it brings enduring happiness. So I wouldn't necessarily consider enduring happiness a qualifier of pursuing worthy goals, but would say that pursuing worthy goals tends to produce enduring happiness as a mere by-product. Nonetheless, the enduring happiness, in and of itself, is quite meaningless and worthless.
bluebear
[quote author=Dan link=board=5;threadid=3066;start=0#msg15059 date=1067107858]
how about you prove it right instead of simply claiming it to be right
[/quote]

It has been my and other people's experience, and you've yet to inform me that you've experienced otherwise, so I can only presume in the absence of such an admission that you concur with me.
jana t.
[quote author=bluebear link=board=5;threadid=3066;start=0#msg15056 date=1067107730]
such happiness that we aim for is always fleeting. It is not a failure. The same holds for you and for everyone. Try to prove me wrong.
[/quote]

Could it be that happiness can be known as both a by-product and as an ends?

Could it be that happiness can be known in a diversity of scales, big and small, enduring and fleeting?

Could it be that some of us, perhaps through our choices and actions, have known happiness as only a small subset of these these many different forms?
Dan
'Bluebear', somehow you were(are) relating 'enduring happiness' with 'worthy goals' as if 'enduring happiness' was a necessary result of 'worthy goals'. Now that I have pointed this out, you are renegging on your 'enduring happiness' qualifier as you can not explain why it should be so. The only other 'explanation' (that 'enduring happiness' is a qualifier for 'worthy goals') is a contradiction with your position. Are you now going to hold that 'enduring happiness' has nothing to do with 'worthy goals', and that any such correlation is purely coincidental? If so, there is no need to be talking about 'enduring happiness' as it is obviously irrelevant to your 'aim'
Dan
[quote]It has been my and other people's experience, and you've yet to inform me that you've experienced otherwise, so I can only presume in the absence of such an admission that you concur with me. [/quote]
you're the one who is claiming that happiness is always fleeting (except you also somehow believe that there exists 'enduring' happiness). The burden of proof is on you to prove your claim, not on me to disprove it
bluebear
[quote author=Dan link=board=5;threadid=3066;start=0#msg15067 date=1067109262]
'Bluebear', somehow you were relating 'enduring happiness' with 'worthy goals' as if 'enduring happiness' was a necessary result of 'worthy goals'.
[/quote]

I never implied that enduring happiness was the result of worthy goals. What I said was that enduring happiness is a mere by-product of striving towards and realizing worthy goals. There's a big difference. Further, enduring happiness, in and of itself, is worthless. We pursue and realize worthy aims precisely because we deem them worthy. The fact that enduring happiness, which is in itself worthless, often or always accompanies the pursuit and realizing of worthy goals is not my problem to solve. The point is that aiming for happiness is foolish. One should aim for worthier goals, such as knowing God and oneself, and realizing one's potential, in which case one will likely experience happiness as a by-product, though will very likely remain indifferent and detached from it since happiness is, in and of itself, worthless. That which is worthy is that which we strive towards and realize, and is that which fills our life with meaning. Striving towards happiness, which is itself worthless, will only lead to it's fleeting experience, from whence one will realize how empty and vain one's striving for it was, and will hopefully direct one's attention towards worthier aims in life, which will result in the experience of happiness too, but it no longer is something that is sought after because it's falsity and meaninglessness has already been discerned. If you aim for happiness in life, and it seems like you do, Dan, then it is very likely because you have yet to experience all that comes from pursuing worthy aims with all of one's being and consciousness.
As such, I would recommend pursuing something more meaningful in your life.


bluebear
[quote author=Dan link=board=5;threadid=3066;start=0#msg15068 date=1067109391]
you're the one who is claiming that happiness is always fleeting (except you also somehow believe that there exists 'enduring' happiness). The burden of proof is on you to prove your claim, not on me to disprove it
[/quote]

I've already proved it to the extent that my experience, and other people's experiences, constitute such proof.

Further, if happiness was the real aim in life, and if its pursuit ever resulted in enduring happiness, then there would be no aims left and nothing left in life to pursue according to you. A rather meaningless life, wouldn't you say?

Because you still pursue aims in life, and because you've already professed that the real aim in your life is happiness, I can only conclude that you've failed to achieve enduring happiness in your life, which is further proof of the validity of what I've been saying all along.
Dan
[quote]I never implied that enduring happiness was the result of worthy goals. What I said was that enduring happiness is a mere by-product of striving towards and realizing worthy goals. [/quote]
I defy you to explain why this should be


[quote]Further, enduring happiness, in and of itself, is worthless.[/quote]
but somehow you thought to mention it as if it were a 'benefit' of worthy goals. why?



[quote]We pursue and realize worthy aims precisely because we deem them worthy.[/quote]
a tautology is no explanation, 'bluebear'. Try harder




[quote]The fact that enduring happiness, which is in itself worthless, often or always accompanies the pursuit and realizing of worthy goals is not my problem to solve.[/quote]
Declaring such a fact and then denying the responsibility of proof is evidence that you simply want to believe it




[quote]The point is that aiming for happiness is foolish. [/quote]
maybe what you understand as 'aiming for happiness' is foolish, as evidenced by your past failures



[quote]One should aim for worthier goals, such as knowing God and oneself, and realizing one's potential,[/quote]
Why? What makes these goals worthy?


[quote]in which case one will likely experience happiness as a by-product, though will very likely remain indifferent and detached from it since happiness is, in and of itself, worthless. [/quote]
Again, you offer no explanation as to why this association is 'likely'. Why is it likely?


[quote]That which is worthy is that which we strive towards and realize, and is that which fills our life with meaning. [/quote]
Are you saying that worth is simply a byproduct of striving and realizing? Is this another tautology? Why is it meaningful to strive and realize? Tell me why any act should be meaningful without saying 'because one strives' or 'because it is worthy'.



[quote]Striving towards happiness, which is itself worthless, will only lead to it's fleeting experience, from whence one will realize how empty and vain one's striving for it was, and will hopefully direct one's attention towards worthier aims in life, which will result in the experience of happiness too, but it no longer is something that is sought after because it's falsity and meaninglessness has already been discerned.[/quote]
again, you are stating that 'happiness' is a necessary consequence of 'worthy aims'. WHY?



[quote]If you aim for happiness in life, and it seems like you do, Dan, then it is very likely because you have yet to experience all that comes from pursuing worthy aims with all of one's being and consciousness.[/quote]
I have worthy aims because my happiness depends on it. I Cannot Be Happy Otherwise



[quote]As such, I would recommend pursuing something more meaningful in your life.[/quote]
I would recommend that you get a little more real


bluebear
[quote author=Dan link=board=5;threadid=3066;start=#msg15072 date=1067111406]
I defy you to explain why this should be
[/quote]

I decline your challenge because as I said before, it's not my problem, nor is it something that I feel needs an explanation.

[quote author=Dan link=board=5;threadid=3066;start=#msg15072 date=1067111406]
but somehow you thought to mention it as if it were a 'benefit' of worthy goals. why?
[/quote]

no, i never said 'benefit'. I said 'by-product', and the only reason I said it was to point out the silliness of aiming for happiness when one can achieve more enduring happiness by aiming for worthier goals.

[quote author=Dan link=board=5;threadid=3066;start=#msg15072 date=1067111406]
a tautology is no explanation, 'bluebear'. Try harder
[/quote]

Hardly. In the statement, "We pursue and realize worthy aims precisely because we deem them worthy", the relation is causal, not tautological.

[quote author=Dan link=board=5;threadid=3066;start=#msg15072 date=1067111406]
Declaring such a fact and then denying the responsibility of proof is evidence that you simply want to believe it
[/quote]

the proof I've already given. It resides in my and other people's experiences. What other proof do you want? A videotape of my life or of other people's lives?

[quote author=Dan link=board=5;threadid=3066;start=#msg15072 date=1067111406]
maybe what you understand as 'aiming for happiness' is foolish, as evidenced by your past failures
[/quote]

using your definition of failure, which apparently means the failure of achieving enduring happiness when one aims for it, then you've failed too. So what's your point?

[quote author=Dan link=board=5;threadid=3066;start=#msg15072 date=1067111406]
Why? What makes these goals worthy?
[/quote]

direct experience and a certain realization will answer these questions for you. It's something I find difficult putting into words, though I'll probably try later.

[quote author=Dan link=board=5;threadid=3066;start=#msg15072 date=1067111406]
Are you saying that worth is simply a byproduct of striving and realizing? Or are you presenting an implied tautology?
[/quote]

I'm saying that we should strive after aims that we deem worthy.

[quote author=Dan link=board=5;threadid=3066;start=#msg15072 date=1067111406]
Tell me why any act should be meaningful without saying 'because one strives' or 'because it is worthy'.
[/quote]

What you ask for requires a general definition of meaning, and this is something that's been written about in other places. If you've experienced meaningful acts, then you can ask yourself what made them meaningful, thereby answering your own question. You'll see that it's hard to put into words (though attempts have been made elsewhere).

[quote author=Dan link=board=5;threadid=3066;start=#msg15072 date=1067111406]
I have worthy aims [b]because my happiness depends on it.
[/quote]

so without happiness, your life has no meaning and is without worthy aims?

[quote author=Dan link=board=5;threadid=3066;start=#msg15072 date=1067111406]
I would recommend that you get a little more real
[/quote]

I'm as real as they come.

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