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Full Version: On The Spiritual Laziness And Gullibility Of Christians, Islamic Sheep, Buddhists, And Others Who Cannot Think For Themselves
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lucid_dream
It's funny that probably close to 99% of society believes in utterly primitive notions derived from religion. I have seen many actually hold their heads up high and be proud of the fact that they are naive and gullible enough to take the bible, koran, and other "sacred" works literally. How ridiculous is that?

In terms of mental, spiritual, and intellectual evolution and development, there is so much variability between individuals that it makes comparison and even dialogue difficult. How do you interact with people who are primitive christians, or primitive followers of islam, or primitive buddhists, or in general, people who are so mentally and spiritually lazy that they cannot think for themselves and instead choose to blindly accept the words of others as truth?

The best thing these religious sheep can do for themselves is to destroy their belief system, and start over from scratch, trying to think for themselves and make use of their experience. There is something far better than any religion can offer, but it is up to you to find it for yourselves. No one else can tell you what it is, though sometimes it's possible to point other people in the right direction. So come on, get to it!


maximus242
lol I think the purpose of religion may be as a break from reality for those who cant handle it! haha funny but true. The notion that someone is looking out for you is to help those who are overly worried with their daily lives, the one that always gets me is "why does god make people suffer?" ugh the very question brings up ideas of smaking the ones who asked. Even if an almighty being did exist then what would the diffrence be between earth and heaven if no one suffred and further more (as previously discussed) not only would earth almost become more like hell than if their was suffering but no one would improve, everyone would become more and more lazy because their would be no reason for them to work or improve themselves. This actually has been occuring over time with the human race but on a much slower scale. It is also the reason for the increase in obesity, plainly we dont have to do anything! we dont need to hunt or walk or work. Everything is handed to us so we turn into lazy fat asses.

Although I do have to say the figure for those who believe in a religion is much lower than 99%. Although I cannot remember the statistics anymore I was shown what the worldwide percentages were for the major religions, then all the small ones were group together and what was left was the non believers tongue.gif. However I would not call people primitive unless I was to call myself primitive as well, this is because as foolish as it may seem that they believe in religion so too do non believers do foolish things. I do understand what it is like talking to someone who is a complete true believe in whatever lord they worship and it can be very frustrating. This lack of open mindedness is like beating your head against a brick wall. My solution is not to debate it out with them if they are completly unopenminded (because no matter how right you prove yourself they wont believe you) instead I let them go on with their lives believing in what they want as I spend my time looking for others who are above it instead of wasting time (I have tried) conversing with those who are to close minded to listen.
lucid_dream
Religion has some interesting ideas, but to blindly accept the tenets of any religion on "Faith" amounts to voluntary enprisonment of your mind and spirit. I wouldn't wish that on anybody.

maximus242
actually you bring up an intresting idea, did you know almost all of the time people will choose security over freedom? this is what religions live off of.
cerebral
QUOTE(maximus242 @ Feb 11, 04:22 PM) *

actually you bring up an intresting idea, did you know almost all of the time people will choose security over freedom? this is what religions live off of.


I'm inclined to think they live off pulling the wool over your eyes while demanding obedience and financial contributions. If you're cute enough, they might try to get other things too.

maximus242
lol its sad but true what goes on in religion but it has improved 700% compared to what it used to be. I will put up some info on how cults and other agencies using mind control & mind manipulation operate by tommorow if I can. anyways g2g for now cyah tongue.gif
Joesus
QUOTE(lucid_dream @ Feb 11, 11:52 PM) *

It's funny that probably close to 99% of society believes in utterly primitive notions derived from religion. I have seen many actually hold their heads up high and be proud of the fact that they are naive and gullible enough to take the bible, koran, and other "sacred" works literally. How ridiculous is that?

In terms of mental, spiritual, and intellectual evolution and development, there is so much variability between individuals that it makes comparison and even dialogue difficult. How do you interact with people who are primitive christians, or primitive followers of islam, or primitive buddhists, or in general, people who are so mentally and spiritually lazy that they cannot think for themselves and instead choose to blindly accept the words of others as truth?

The best thing these religious sheep can do for themselves is to destroy their belief system, and start over from scratch, trying to think for themselves and make use of their experience. There is something far better than any religion can offer, but it is up to you to find it for yourselves. No one else can tell you what it is, though sometimes it's possible to point other people in the right direction. So come on, get to it!



Is this a serious question or just a slam? Are you claiming to know something of the history or origin of these religions so as to be an authoritive spokesman or are you whining because you can't come to common ground with these people you have alienated from your set standards of evolution?

Do you find no benefit to the belief in God regardless of the limits one has in their knowledge of God?

Personally I find the idea that so many are focused on God even in a limited fashion quite compelling, in that there is a force in nature that inspires a desire to believe in something even if it's limited by personal knowledge.

You can pretty much trace every religion back to a single root. Those who became enlightened and shared their experiences attracted those who were in their own life ready for something, anything that might explain the drive within themselves to seek the answers to questions.
The only limits to the process are in the abilities of one to recognize something that exists outside of the box the personality has built in beliefs of reality.
One has to learn to crawl before they can walk. True compassion is in recognizing all levels of evolutionary progress and giving them equal value rather than trashing those that seem below our boxed standards built on our own weak sense of self worth. It's easy to trash the little guy when we are seeking to maintain our own elite status. In fact it becomes necessary so that we can maintain our position.
lucid_dream
QUOTE(Joesus @ Feb 11, 08:14 PM) *

Do you find no benefit to the belief in God regardless of the limits one has in their knowledge of God?

Personally I find the idea that so many are focused on God even in a limited fashion quite compelling, in that there is a force in nature that inspires a desire to believe in something even if it's limited by personal knowledge.
...
True compassion is in recognizing all levels of evolutionary progress and giving them equal value rather than trashing those that seem below our boxed standards built on our own weak sense of self worth. It's easy to trash the little guy when we are seeking to maintain our own elite status. In fact it becomes necessary so that we can maintain our position.



Joesus, my post is a rant about blind acceptance of religious doctrine without backing it up with personal experience and thought. Your observation that many are focused on God is considerably less interesting when we begin to realize that many people just parrot what they've read or been taught without giving thought to what they're saying and what they're blindly accepting as true. We must question all our assumptions periodically. Religious doctrines are nothing more than a large conglomeration of assumptions that the religious authorities want you to accept on blind faith. This blind acceptance is what I take issue with and what disgusts me. So no, you will not find me sympathizing with thoughtless sheep anytime soon. Our time on earth is too short for nonsense and false identification.

I've said before that I believe religion has a purpose and that each of us must pass through a religious phase. But that being said, each of us also must pass through oral and anal phases as a baby, yet we don't elevate their importance or claim that they're the best phases in the world. Religion is no different. Anyone caught in it, who blindly accepts religious doctrines, I consider below a child and will treat as such. At least a child maintains an open-mind and looks upon all with fresh eyes. Religious doctrines are meant to dull the mind and turn you into a blindly obedient servant of the religious authority. It is all about power, ignorance, and gullibility. There is little that is holy or transcendental in that.

All assumptions can be questioned. Our lives are full of them, and most of the time we do not question them. We should be questioning and reevaluating. Wouldn't you agree?

Joesus
QUOTE
All assumptions can be questioned. Our lives are full of them, and most of the time we do not question them. We should be questioning and reevaluating.

It's funny that probably close to 99% of society believes in utterly primitive notions derived from religion.


Are you sure this isn't an assumption?
Couldn't you also say religion is interpreted through the primitive notions, or cognition of the inner impulses or clouded intuition regarding the forces of nature and the experiences of nature and its relationship with humanity?

IF, you had an understanding of the creation of the universe and a relationship that was united with it rather than separated from it would you rant about something that you were connected to?

Even if you had a limited knowledge and questioned the reality of God and the universe, rather than following any assumptions would it and does it do any good to complain about the things around you other than maybe temporarily satisfying some sense of self measure?

Wouldn't it be more constructive to look into your own relationship with the essence of that, which inspires all religions and relationships with God and the Universe rather than to point to something and complain about it?
Is there possibly something there to inspire YOU, to find more that satifies both the intellect and the heart in you? If so wouldn't that be something to be grateful for?

In my own experience I find that there is no such thing as Chaos.
The body and the world is only a reflection or extension of the mind in its own beliefs of reality. The mind when disconnected from the pure intuitive aspect of the heart always tries to find identity in a world that is constantly changing, creating beliefs based on experiences of the past which are usually created from limited beliefs in reality.
Often superstition perpetuates itself because the majority hides behind democratic process, not opening itself to differences in opinion and embracing that which connects individual experiences to the diversity of humanity. Focus is on what is wrong with the world rather than what is followed thru perceptions of personal realities and beliefs. In other words we tend to look at the world thru our own filters when we see something that inspires us to rant rather than to seek the Truth and then share that with those that are ready to drop their illusions for something more real.

There are a lot of good things in the Bible and the Koran if you know what is Truth. Just because someone doesn't use the tools correctly doesn't mean the tools are bad or that the untrained user is unable to grasp reality.
lucid_dream
QUOTE(Joesus @ Feb 12, 01:55 AM) *
QUOTE(lucid_dream @ Feb 11, 03:52 PM) *

All assumptions can be questioned. Our lives are full of them, and most of the time we do not question them. We should be questioning and reevaluating.

It's funny that probably close to 99% of society believes in utterly primitive notions derived from religion.


Are you sure this isn't an assumption?

It is an inference based on experience. The only assumption is that my broad experience with individuals may be generalized to entire population. Given that my sampling of the population is biased towards educated individuals, I figure my original estimate of 99% of society thoughtlessly believing in primitive religious notions is an underestimate. The figure may be closer to 99.99%.

QUOTE(Joesus @ Feb 12, 01:55 AM) *

IF, you had an understanding of the creation of the universe and a relationship that was united with it rather than separated from it would you rant about something that you were connected to?

I don't see why not. Just the fact that we are all interconnected with everything else in the universe in one way or another does not imply we can't rant about things.

QUOTE(Joesus @ Feb 12, 01:55 AM) *

does it do any good to complain about the things around you other than maybe temporarily satisfying some sense of self measure?

complaining and questioning assumptions are two different things. I am not complaining. I am suggesting that people think more and question their assumptions more instead of blindly and thoughtlessly accepting other people's dogmas as truth.

QUOTE(Joesus @ Feb 12, 01:55 AM) *

Wouldn't it be more constructive to look into your own relationship with the essence of that, which inspires all religions and relationships with God and the Universe

I do both, and more.

QUOTE(Joesus @ Feb 12, 01:55 AM) *

Is there possibly something there to inspire YOU, to find more that satifies both the intellect and the heart in you? If so wouldn't that be something to be grateful for?

There is much to be grateful for, but there would be much more to be grateful for if more people learned to think for themselves. Wouldn't you agree Joesus, or are you grateful for the people who blindly and thoughtlessly accept what you teach them without giving it thought or relating it to their personal experience?

QUOTE(Joesus @ Feb 12, 01:55 AM) *

In my own experience I find that there is no such thing as Chaos.

What does this have to do with anything?

QUOTE(Joesus @ Feb 12, 01:55 AM) *

The body and the world is only a reflection or extension of the mind in its own beliefs of reality.

depends on how you define mind. Reflection is not the same thing as extension. Are you saying you believe the world is a reflection of the mind or an extension? Does this not make it different from the mind?

QUOTE(Joesus @ Feb 12, 01:55 AM) *

There are a lot of good things in the Bible and the Koran if you know what is Truth.

There are few diamonds in a lot of mud. We would do well to separate the wheat from the chaff and get rid of the "holy bs" books altogether.

QUOTE(Joesus @ Feb 12, 01:55 AM) *

Just because someone doesn't use the tools correctly doesn't mean the tools are bad

agreed, but irrelevent for the purposes of this dialogue

maximus242
QUOTE(Joesus @ Feb 11, 09:14 PM) *

QUOTE(lucid_dream @ Feb 11, 11:52 PM) *

It's funny that probably close to 99% of society believes in utterly primitive notions derived from religion. I have seen many actually hold their heads up high and be proud of the fact that they are naive and gullible enough to take the bible, koran, and other "sacred" works literally. How ridiculous is that?

In terms of mental, spiritual, and intellectual evolution and development, there is so much variability between individuals that it makes comparison and even dialogue difficult. How do you interact with people who are primitive christians, or primitive followers of islam, or primitive buddhists, or in general, people who are so mentally and spiritually lazy that they cannot think for themselves and instead choose to blindly accept the words of others as truth?

The best thing these religious sheep can do for themselves is to destroy their belief system, and start over from scratch, trying to think for themselves and make use of their experience. There is something far better than any religion can offer, but it is up to you to find it for yourselves. No one else can tell you what it is, though sometimes it's possible to point other people in the right direction. So come on, get to it!



Is this a serious question or just a slam? Are you claiming to know something of the history or origin of these religions so as to be an authoritive spokesman or are you whining because you can't come to common ground with these people you have alienated from your set standards of evolution?

Do you find no benefit to the belief in God regardless of the limits one has in their knowledge of God?

Personally I find the idea that so many are focused on God even in a limited fashion quite compelling, in that there is a force in nature that inspires a desire to believe in something even if it's limited by personal knowledge.

You can pretty much trace every religion back to a single root. Those who became enlightened and shared their experiences attracted those who were in their own life ready for something, anything that might explain the drive within themselves to seek the answers to questions.
The only limits to the process are in the abilities of one to recognize something that exists outside of the box the personality has built in beliefs of reality.
One has to learn to crawl before they can walk. True compassion is in recognizing all levels of evolutionary progress and giving them equal value rather than trashing those that seem below our boxed standards built on our own weak sense of self worth. It's easy to trash the little guy when we are seeking to maintain our own elite status. In fact it becomes necessary so that we can maintain our position.



Religion has been traced all the way back to shamanism which is said the be the first form of religion. And lucid a lot less than 99.99% of people believe in a religion.
lucid_dream
QUOTE(Joesus @ Feb 11, 08:14 PM) *

Do you find no benefit to the belief in God regardless of the limits one has in their knowledge of God?


Depends on how you define God. I believe beliefs have utility and sometimes are even related to truth, but we should all be examining and re-evaluating all of our assumptions every now and then, even assumptions involving God.

People who blindly and thoughtlessly accept and parrot what others teach should learn to think for themselves. Otherwise, they will be pawns of others.

Joesus
QUOTE
complaining and questioning assumptions are two different things. I am not complaining. I am suggesting that people think more and question their assumptions more instead of blindly and thoughtlessly accepting other people's dogmas as truth.

Ranting and questioning are two different things..

QUOTE
I don't see why not. Just the fact that we are all interconnected with everything else in the universe in one way or another does not imply we can't rant about things.

No it doesn't, it doesn't imply that you should either. I was simply suggesting that if you were omniscient you would have knowledge of what the end result of this creation was. There are different ideas about being connected. If you were the master builder of your own house you would know what you were building. Being that your own vision is that of a speculated opinion based on the knowledge of union rather than the experience of Union you still hold the world outside of you as in need of something but haven't a clue how to approach your diagnosis.

QUOTE
complaining and questioning assumptions are two different things. I am not complaining. I am suggesting that people think more and question their assumptions more instead of blindly and thoughtlessly accepting other people's dogmas as truth.


You are making an assumption that most are as interested in other peoples choices and opinions as you are, and that people in general blindly accept others choices, beliefs and points of view as their own.
Personally when exploring anothers beliefs I find making blanket statements about humanity as a whole based on a few individuals limiting.

QUOTE
I do both, and more.

Well I haven't seen any proof of that but I won't make make the assumption that you haven't done the best that you know how.

QUOTE
There is much to be grateful for, but there would be much more to be grateful for if more people learned to think for themselves. Wouldn't you agree Joesus, or are you grateful for the people who blindly and thoughtlessly accept what you teach them without giving it thought or relating it to their personal experience?

I'm not invested in what people decide to do with their power of choice. I find surrender in service regardless of the outcome quite expanding.

QUOTE
depends on how you define mind. Reflection is not the same thing as extension. Are you saying you believe the world is a reflection of the mind or an extension? Does this not make it different from the mind?

Only when you see reflection and extension as two different things, then yes mind becomes something different

QUOTE
There are few diamonds in a lot of mud. We would do well to separate the wheat from the chaff and get rid of the "holy bs" books altogether.

I hear that from a lot of people who do not understand the influence of God in creation. Generally from those that have their own expectations of reality, without the experience of Union.

QUOTE
agreed, but irrelevent for the purposes of this dialogue

Sounds like there is room for more in your experience of self reflection and evolution of both mind and body.

By the way defining God in any manner, including separating any aspect of what you see as being right or wrong or separate from the creation God is a blind assumption.
There are no victims and there are no pawns once you really get to know God.
lucid_dream
Joesus, I get the impression from you that you believe that being content with everything and being accepting of everything just the way it is is the sure sign of wisdom and the pinnacle of spirit. This is false. You may be content with the way things are, but I do not believe you are any wiser for it. Quite the contrary in fact.

People, when they age, tend to become more mellow, more feminine (or receptive), more resigned to "fate" and circumstance, and less able to make discriminating choices (hence, the "everything is the same" line). This is weakness, not the sign of wisdom. I have not seen any evidence that your motives for what you say are anything other than that of a tired person.

And let's face it, religious scriptures are poorly written, poorly articulated, and contain little in the way of wisdom. They appeal to the masses, hence their popularity, but since when does wisdom and truth compromise itself for the masses; never.

Our species would do better to extract out the few lines of wisdom from the mass of religious scriptures, and to put the rest to flame. Anyone who thinks wisdom is to be found from reading scripture is not wise. Wisdom is to be found in the experience itself.

QUOTE(Joesus @ Feb 12, 04:33 PM) *
Sounds like there is room for more in your experience of self reflection and evolution of both mind and body.

sounds like there's room for you too. There's room for everyone.

QUOTE(Joesus @ Feb 12, 04:33 PM) *
There are no victims and there are no pawns once you really get to know God.

No victims? If you really believe that, burn down your house and cut off your right arm.

Guest
People are generally getting smarter. We are more aware of the world around us. Technology is helping us to understand more, quicker. Institutional religion is in crisis. People just don't see the point in 'having faith'. Why waste time believing in something that is ineffable? Why not help fellow humans directly rather than spend time in a church worshipping? Why be exclusive? Why not judge people individually? Faith in God is falling apart I think. 'What is God' is increasingly being answered with: 'a dated control mechanism leveraging forced ignorance and the fear of the unknown for the benefit of the few'.
Guest
"Believe those who seek the truth. Doubt those who find it." -- Andre Gide

"What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence." -- Christopher Hitchens
maximus242
QUOTE

I'm not invested in what people decide to do with their power of choice. I find surrender in service regardless of the outcome quite expanding.


I see no diffrence between your god and any other totaltarian. The idea that this loving god would threaten his people with the notion that if they didnt do what he wants he will send em to hell alone disproves the ideas of a loving god. Your no more than sheep to afraid of the wolves, so you follow the shepard to whatever end he will lead you to.
Joesus
QUOTE
Joesus, I get the impression from you that you believe that being content with everything and being accepting of everything just the way it is is the sure sign of wisdom and the pinnacle of spirit.

First impressions are often deceiving when one places their own thoughts about reality on the board as being universal Truth. I take it since you accept the idea that there's room for more in your experience that you won't be standing still in this single impression without (at some point) actually asking questions to receive more.

Heres a jewel for you.:
Mt 7:6 Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you.

and:

Eccles 8:17 Then I beheld all the work of God, that a man cannot find out the work that is done under the sun: because though a man labour to seek it out, yet he shall not find it; yea farther; though a wise man think to know it, yet shall he not be able to find it.

1 Cor 2:9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.


Got any Idea what this means?

QUOTE
People, when they age, tend to become more mellow, more feminine (or receptive), more resigned to "fate" and circumstance, and less able to make discriminating choices (hence, the "everything is the same" line). This is weakness, not the sign of wisdom. I have not seen any evidence that your motives for what you say are anything other than that of a tired person.

More projections of your personal beliefs? Should I or anyone else take for granted this and the other statement about 99% of humanity being sheep because you believe this to be true? If I was to accept this as being universeal Truth without having my own experience wouldn't I just become one of your sheep?

QUOTE
And let's face it, religious scriptures are poorly written, poorly articulated, and contain little in the way of wisdom. They appeal to the masses, hence their popularity, but since when does wisdom and truth compromise itself for the masses; never.

Sometimes poorly translated, most often misunderstood. I would agree that wisdom and truth do not compromise each other, it is only the misunderstanding of truth and wisdom that perpetuates the illusion of conflict and compromise.

QUOTE
Our species would do better to extract out the few lines of wisdom from the mass of religious scriptures, and to put the rest to flame. Anyone who thinks wisdom is to be found from reading scripture is not wise. Wisdom is to be found in the experience itself.

What do you recommend as the point of authority to determine Truth and wisdom?

QUOTE
No victims? If you really believe that, burn down your house and cut off your right arm.

Come again?.. If I burnt my own house and cut my own arm off, how would I be a victim to my own actions?




QUOTE
I see no diffrence between your god and any other totaltarian. The idea that this loving god would threaten his people with the notion that if they didnt do what he wants he will send em to hell alone disproves the ideas of a loving god. Your no more than sheep to afraid of the wolves, so you follow the shepard to whatever end he will lead you to.

God doesn't threaten anyone. Some people may believe God is threatening them thru their own superstitions and ignorant beliefs.
lucid_dream
QUOTE(Joesus @ Feb 12, 09:24 PM) *
First impressions are often deceiving when one places their own thoughts about reality on the board as being universal Truth.

I did not preach universal truths. I have only conveyed my observations of people in general, and issued a call for people to start thinking more for themselves instead of just accepting as true what religious authorities or others feed them. It is partly out of pity that I issued the call, and also in the hope that some might listen.

QUOTE(Joesus @ Feb 12, 09:24 PM) *
More projections of your personal beliefs? Should I or anyone else take for granted this and the other statement about 99% of humanity being sheep because you believe this to be true? If I was to accept this as being universeal Truth without having my own experience wouldn't I just become one of your sheep?

no-one is immune to projecting, not even you. We can do our best to guard against it as the situation warrants. No, you should not take anything I say for granted. Like I said before, I am not claiming universal truths. Only sharing my observations and making a request of others. I am not looking for sheep, simply to find resonance in others who share my sentiments.

QUOTE(Joesus @ Feb 12, 09:24 PM) *
Heres a jewel for you.:

I am too rich for that.

QUOTE(Joesus @ Feb 12, 09:24 PM) *
Got any Idea what this means?

I was not born yesterday.

QUOTE(Joesus @ Feb 12, 09:24 PM) *
What do you recommend as the point of authority to determine Truth and wisdom?

I do not recommend any authorities save our experience. We are the authorities. Not those old ones whose words echo throughout the centuries and who are parroted by parrots as soon as they learn to talk.

QUOTE(Joesus @ Feb 12, 09:24 PM) *
Come again?.. If I burnt my own house and cut my own arm off, how would I be a victim to my own actions?

no doubt some would say it was your own fault, but I would understand and would try to convince everyone else that you were a victim of your beliefs.

Joesus
QUOTE
I did not preach universal truths. I have only conveyed my observations of people in general, and issued a call for people to start thinking more for themselves instead of just accepting as true what religious authorities or others feed them. It is partly out of pity that I issued the call, and also in the hope that some might listen.

Interesting, you appeal to others to ask questions and seek answers, but before you ask questions of me you make general observations of me based on your beliefs of older people and the stereotyping you have attached to older people in general.
Is this what you are seeking to draw towards you, more like minded individuals who through their own similar beliefs look to change the world more to your liking?

QUOTE

no-one is immune to projecting
Then why make general statements about people around your changing experiences?

QUOTE
I was not born yesterday.

I'll take that as a no..

QUOTE
I do not recommend any authorities save our experience. We are the authorities. Not those old ones whose words echo throughout the centuries and who are parroted by parrots as soon as they learn to talk.
Experiences change. You haven't really met 99% of humanity nor do you seem to have the experience of studying religion to understand the concept behind it. You still haven't answered my question of what the quotes of scripture mean. Perhaps you need to ask more questions and seek to discover what underlies your approach in making general statements about the world from just your own single experience.

QUOTE
no doubt some would say it was your own fault, but I would understand and would try to convince everyone else that you were a victim of your beliefs.

I see... So much for letting others have their own experience and being their own authority..
lucid_dream
QUOTE(Joesus @ Feb 12, 10:48 PM) *
but before you ask questions of me you make general observations of me based on your beliefs of older people and the stereotyping you have attached to older people in general.

you're right. I should not have done that.

QUOTE(Joesus @ Feb 12, 10:48 PM) *
Is this what you are seeking to draw towards you, more like minded individuals who through their own similar beliefs look to change the world more to your liking?

with others involved, there is no I, only our.

QUOTE(Joesus @ Feb 12, 10:48 PM) *
Then why make general statements about people around your changing experiences?

why not? So long as I'm not projecting.

QUOTE(Joesus @ Feb 12, 10:48 PM) *
I'll take that as a no..

You should take that as an "I will not be lured into that trap". The bible is open to ridiculously many interpretations. I don't need others misinterpreting my interpretations and attacking straw men.

QUOTE(Joesus @ Feb 12, 10:48 PM) *
Experiences change.

Which is good. If they didn't, life would get boring really fast.

QUOTE(Joesus @ Feb 12, 10:48 PM) *
You haven't really met 99% of humanity

I don't know what you mean since "humanity" is an abstract term. If you mean I haven't met 99% percent of the human population, well that's obvious. No-one has.

QUOTE(Joesus @ Feb 12, 10:48 PM) *
nor do you seem to have the experience of studying religion to understand the concept behind it

if you have something to contribute, do. What do you believe is the concept behind religion that, according to you, I do not understand?

QUOTE(Joesus @ Feb 12, 10:48 PM) *
You still haven't answered my question of what the quotes of scripture mean.

because it is irrelevant. And also for the reason given above. If there is some interpretation you think I'm missing, then out with it man.

QUOTE(Joesus @ Feb 12, 10:48 PM) *
Perhaps you need to ask more questions

or perhaps I have been asking too many questions and need to take more actions.

QUOTE(Joesus @ Feb 12, 10:48 PM) *
I see... So much for letting others have their own experience and being their own authority..

you're the one who said there were no victims. Maybe instead of suggesting that you burn down your house and cut off your right arm, I should have just asked you if you would feel victimized if someone else burnt down your house and cut off your right arm with a steak knife.

Joesus
QUOTE
Is this what you are seeking to draw towards you, more like minded individuals who through their own similar beliefs look to change the world more to your liking?
with others involved, there is no I, only our.

You're mixing words..
The point is, that you are like the 99% you claim to have knowledge of in that you seek security within the beliefs of your own ideals regardless of how far you have taken yourself into the knowledge and experience of it. If you have room to grow than why make assumptions at your present level of experience?
If you feel you have that right then why not give that freedom and right to all others? What makes your personal Jihad most righteous? The rationalization that you face a majority that seeks to change the world to their point of view leaves you in a minority seeking to find union in a like minded attempt to change the majority.

QUOTE
Then why make general statements about people around your changing experiences?
why not? So long as I'm not projecting.

If your experiences change how do you know you aren't projecting from a lesser experience? So far you haven't really talked about the reality of absolutes or of consciousness, the essence behind reality and the manifest display of diversity and free will.
You seem interested in your will being righteous according to your level of experience and the condemnation of others who do not meet your expectations or standards. What of others who have more knowledge than you? Do they exist? And more importantly do they have the right to suggest as you have that you may be following designs based on ignorance or lack of knowledge and experience and would you accept that as you wish the lesser that you have outlined to surrender to your will?

QUOTE
I'll take that as a no..
You should take that as an "I will not be lured into that trap". The bible is open to ridiculously many interpretations. I don't need others misinterpreting my interpretations and attacking straw men.


Paranoia strikes deep.... I'm asking you to share your experience of the Bible, not your opinion of others words of the bible Why not give others the freedom to make their own determination of your knowledge and experience as you have done with them? How else are you going to offer the truth about religons and what is in the bible if you yourself do not understand what is in it? Simply making the statement that it should be burned is only coming from your opinion that it or those who read it have corrupted the 99% of humans that you are seeking to change. Have you read the Bible?



QUOTE
You haven't really met 99% of humanity
I don't know what you mean since "humanity" is an abstract term. If you mean I haven't met 99% percent of the human population, well that's obvious. No-one has.

How long does it take you to really know someone? I'm genuinely curious since you are making claim to having a relationship with the 99% you are seeking to change.

QUOTE
nor do you seem to have the experience of studying religion to understand the concept behind it
if you have something to contribute, do. What do you believe is the concept behind religion that, according to you, I do not understand?

I'm asking you to expand beyond the general concepts you have made about religion. Where your knowledge comes from. Have you actually read the Bible or the Koran since you mentioned them in particular, or the Upanishads, the Vedic Teachings. The Teachings of the East and the West are both founded in common territory.

QUOTE
You still haven't answered my question of what the quotes of scripture mean.
because it is irrelevant. And also for the reason given above. If there is some interpretation you think I'm missing, then out with it man.

It's not irrelevant. making general statements that the book should be burned does not discuss the essence of the teaching that inspired its creation. There are many interpretations, I'm looking for yours, that is what is missing from your claims to experience, not your opinion of others interpretations.
Evolution of spiritual awareness is part and parcel to the Growth of awareness, Scripture is ultimately flexible to allow all interpretations no matter how simple or obscure. Free will and the ability to make choices at all levels of experience is what makes humanity different than animals. No one is following anyone without their ability to make the decision to follow. Unfortunately you can't take that away and have others follow you and your ideals without taking their choice away from them or convincing them that your choice is best for them.
You have been suggesting that others need to see your point of view, and so far the point of view is that what you see is wrong and needs to be changed, but in order for someone to move past their own experience there necessarily has to be something greater for them to surrender to. Your opinion offers nothing greater to step into.
Perhaps if you had something of value to offer on God and religion they might listen to you.
If they believe in God and have an experience of God than I doubt that they will give up their experience for your experience no matter what you had to say.

QUOTE
Perhaps you need to ask more questions
or perhaps I have been asking too many questions and need to take more actions.
or perhaps you have been asking the wrong question.

QUOTE
I see... So much for letting others have their own experience and being their own authority..
you're the one who said there were no victims. Maybe instead of suggesting that you burn down your house and cut off your right arm, I should have just asked you if you would feel victimized if someone else burnt down your house and cut off your right arm with a steak knife.

Perhaps that is the reason you are at where you are at. Your own evolution of understanding and communication is still ongoing. If you want clarity for others you must first be clear.
lucid_dream
Joesus, you're assuming many things, such as my statements are due to limited concepts and experience, whereas what I was requesting at the start was a re-evalution of our widely held assumptions. I reread the thread, and it's evident we are not budging from our positions, so in light of this irreconciliability, let's agree to disagree, at least for the time being.
Guest
QUOTE(lucid_dream @ Feb 14, 07:25 AM) *

Joesus, you're assuming many things, such as my statements are due to limited concepts and experience, whereas what I was requesting at the start was a re-evalution of our widely held assumptions. I reread the thread, and it's evident we are not budging from our positions, so in light of this irreconciliability, let's agree to disagree, at least for the time being.

I'm assuming nothing. I'm simply asking questions you seem to have not resolved in your own mind because you have no clear answers to them. So in light of this I'll agree that you are making general statements based on insufficient knowledge and experience.
Joesus
QUOTE
what I was requesting at the start was a re-evalution of our widely held assumptions.


I'm sure you've heard the old saying that you can't solve a problem from the level that it was created...
Guest
QUOTE(lucid_dream @ Feb 11, 03:52 PM) *

It's funny that probably close to 99% of society believes in utterly primitive notions derived from religion. I have seen many actually hold their heads up high and be proud of the fact that they are naive and gullible enough to take the bible, koran, and other "sacred" works literally. How ridiculous is that?

In terms of mental, spiritual, and intellectual evolution and development, there is so much variability between individuals that it makes comparison and even dialogue difficult. How do you interact with people who are primitive christians, or primitive followers of islam, or primitive buddhists, or in general, people who are so mentally and spiritually lazy that they cannot think for themselves and instead choose to blindly accept the words of others as truth?

The best thing these religious sheep can do for themselves is to destroy their belief system, and start over from scratch, trying to think for themselves and make use of their experience. There is something far better than any religion can offer, but it is up to you to find it for yourselves. No one else can tell you what it is, though sometimes it's possible to point other people in the right direction. So come on, get to it!


Hello lucid_dream,

I agree with your general idea about religions. But religion is only one form of self-deception. If some one did not subscibe to any religion but had some other form of self_deception, that would also be harmful. I suggest that you focus on self_deception as the most basic evil. Have you thought about this idea? This is a friendly suggestion and not a criticism.
guest
QUOTE(Guest @ Feb 15, 04:19 PM) *

QUOTE(lucid_dream @ Feb 11, 03:52 PM) *

It's funny that probably close to 99% of society believes in utterly primitive notions derived from religion. I have seen many actually hold their heads up high and be proud of the fact that they are naive and gullible enough to take the bible, koran, and other "sacred" works literally. How ridiculous is that?

In terms of mental, spiritual, and intellectual evolution and development, there is so much variability between individuals that it makes comparison and even dialogue difficult. How do you interact with people who are primitive christians, or primitive followers of islam, or primitive buddhists, or in general, people who are so mentally and spiritually lazy that they cannot think for themselves and instead choose to blindly accept the words of others as truth?

The best thing these religious sheep can do for themselves is to destroy their belief system, and start over from scratch, trying to think for themselves and make use of their experience. There is something far better than any religion can offer, but it is up to you to find it for yourselves. No one else can tell you what it is, though sometimes it's possible to point other people in the right direction. So come on, get to it!


Hello lucid_dream,

I agree with your general idea about religions. But religion is only one form of self-deception. If some one did not subscibe to any religion but had some other form of self_deception, that would also be harmful. I suggest that you focus on self_deception as the most basic evil. Have you thought about this idea? This is a friendly suggestion and not a criticism.


guest,

what is your understanding of self-deception and harmfulness...what is evil?
guest
"I'm sure you've heard the old saying that you can't solve a problem from the level that it was created"

HUH? isn't the level that anything is created is as it source? thus...one must go to the source to solve a problem?


Joesus
QUOTE(guest @ Feb 16, 12:48 AM) *

"I'm sure you've heard the old saying that you can't solve a problem from the level that it was created"

HUH? isn't the level that anything is created is as it source? thus...one must go to the source to solve a problem?

So what would you identify as the source of this issue?
lucid_dream
QUOTE(Joesus @ Feb 14, 08:49 AM) *
I'm assuming nothing. I'm simply asking questions you seem to have not resolved in your own mind because you have no clear answers to them. So in light of this I'll agree that you are making general statements based on insufficient knowledge and experience.

In other words, Joesus, you're making assumptions because what you said above is equivalent to the following:

QUOTE
I'm assuming nothing. I'm simply asking questions that I am assuming you have not resolved in your own mind because I'm assuming you have no clear answers to them. So in light of these assumptions of mine, I'll (wrongly) conclude that you are making general statements based on insufficient knowledge and experience.

That's a lot of assumptions for someone who's claiming they're assuming nothing, wouldn't you say? Is it possible for you to approach this topic with an open mind?

QUOTE(Joesus @ Feb 14, 06:20 PM) *
QUOTE
what I was requesting at the start was a re-evalution of our widely held assumptions.

I'm sure you've heard the old saying that you can't solve a problem from the level that it was created...

The problem here is the myriad assumptions and doctrines that people thoughtlessly maintain. So what solution are you proposing?
Joesus
QUOTE(lucid_dream @ Feb 16, 03:14 AM) *

QUOTE(Joesus @ Feb 14, 08:49 AM) *
I'm assuming nothing. I'm simply asking questions you seem to have not resolved in your own mind because you have no clear answers to them. So in light of this I'll agree that you are making general statements based on insufficient knowledge and experience.

In other words, Joesus, you're making assumptions because what you said above is equivalent to the following:

QUOTE
I'm assuming nothing. I'm simply asking questions that I am assuming you have not resolved in your own mind because I'm assuming you have no clear answers to them. So in light of these assumptions of mine, I'll further assume that you are making general statements based on insufficient knowledge and experience.

That's a lot of assumptions for someone who's claiming they're assuming nothing, wouldn't you say? Is it possible for you to approach this topic with an open mind?

No those assumptions are yours. I am assuming nothing.

To put it into your own words I've made some general statements which are allowable by your standards as long as I'm not projecting. ohmy.gif

QUOTE
The problem here is the myriad assumptions and doctrines that people thoughtlessly maintain. So what solution are you proposing?


Give them something to replace what they have in experience and belief that is greater than what they have. Unfortunately you can't control ones choices so I guess it boils down to finding peace within yourself rather than trying to control or manipulate the outside to protect yourself from having feelings and judgments about others.
lucid_dream
QUOTE(Guest @ Feb 15, 04:19 PM) *
Hello lucid_dream,

I agree with your general idea about religions. But religion is only one form of self-deception. If some one did not subscibe to any religion but had some other form of self_deception, that would also be harmful. I suggest that you focus on self_deception as the most basic evil. Have you thought about this idea? This is a friendly suggestion and not a criticism.


Yes, all forms of deception should be confronted. Religion is just one of the worst sources of deception, which is why I focused on it instead of self-deception in general. In retrospect, it would have been better to have focused on self-deception, with religious deception as a subtopic. Other subtopics could include various other common fantasies and delusions people enact in their minds, in addition to the common assumptions they maintain, and oftentimes are unaware that they're even assumptions unless they're explicitly called out.

QUOTE(Joesus @ Feb 15, 07:25 PM) *
so I guess it boils down to finding peace within yourself rather than trying to control or manipulate the outside to protect yourself from having feelings and judgments about others.


That's such a cop-out.


QUOTE(Joesus @ Feb 15, 07:25 PM) *
No those assumptions are yours. I am assuming nothing.

Your responses suggest to me that you are coming into this with assumptions, in spite of your denials to that effect. You are probably assuming that, because I am not content with all as is, I must be in a suboptimal or non-illumined state of mind, but I would say this does not logically follow. Whether the highest and most illumined state of mind implies contentedness is beside the point and does not imply that the state of being content with things as they are implies the converse. In other words, just because you are content with everything as it is (or at least that's what you probably want us to believe) does not imply that that's in any way praiseworthy or desirable.

I'm sure that with a lobotomy, I could be passive and content with everything and not desire any change, but is that how I want to live? Never.
Joesus
QUOTE
That's such a cop-out.


So your saying that you have peace of mind and that this issue is not a personal issue driven by your own feelings but one that is driven by a higher source moving you toward a direction inspired by the source of all humanities highest interests?

QUOTE
Your responses suggest to me that you are coming into this with assumptions, in spite of your denials to that effect. You are probably assuming that, because I am not content with all as is, I must be in a suboptimal or non-illumined state of mind, but I would say this does not logically follow. Whether the highest and most illumined state of mind implies contentedness is beside the point and does not imply that the state of being content with things as they are implies the converse. In other words, just because you are content with everything as it is (or at least that's what you probably want us to believe) does not imply that that's in any way praiseworthy or desirable.


Probably assuming?
Your not very sure of your self.
Your lack of response to my questions suggests to me that you don't know the answers to my questions, therefore through the experience I have of you in avoiding the questions and making general statements based on personal experience I use the same general means of making statements to the effect of my experience of you. Convince me otherwise.

I did not make the statment that finding peace within yourself means that you do nothing, that would be a projection of a stereotype you have created similar to the old age stereotyping you demonstrated earlier. So far you have failed to inspire me to think anything other than that you hold a lot of judgment about the world and have little experience of it. If you wish to address an issue you will have to do better than just complain about a problem stating your own points of view and experience. If you want to change the world you had better know how it is created so that you can by understanding it, and your relationship to it, to do something to get different results.
So far you've convinced me you have an issue, but it seems that you have the issue and I don't, so to me it's a personal problem not a problem everyone shares with you.

Do you have an children?
If so do you let your kids work out their playground problems or do you get involved with every thing they do and feel when learning about their relationship with the world? Do you know the difference between guidance and programming?

QUOTE
I'm sure that with a lobotomy, I could be passive and content with everything and not desire any change, but is that how I want to live? Never.


You aren't taking this in a very enlightened direction. This is what I mean by projecting.
If you want to be the Teacher you will have to master what you intend to teach. Otherwise you will only approach each subject from the level of your own misunderstanding.
If you want to use all of your mental and physical faculties you won't be very affective if a good portion of your mind is whirling about in emotional stress and judgment. It takes a great degree of impartial and emotional detachment to be able to hear what is going on inside your own heart, let alone that of others.
People, like you, only want stability, love and reassurance that they won't be denied happiness. No one wants to be happy sometimes. God offers a lot of people hope that they can escape from temporary fixes and random glimpses of happiness when the world seems so divided and inconsistent. Can you offer them a better promise than heaven and eternal peace? If you want to tell them there is no such thing when they believe otherwise or want to believe otherwise then how are you going to convince them?
If you couldn't or can't can you find peace within yourself to know that there are things that you cannot change?

Ever heard of the serenity prayer?


God grant me the serenity
to accept the things I cannot change;
courage to change the things I can;
and wisdom to know the difference.

Living one day at a time;
Enjoying one moment at a time;
Accepting hardships as the pathway to peace;
Taking, as He did, this sinful world
as it is, not as I would have it;
Trusting that He will make all things right
if I surrender to His Will;
That I may be reasonably happy in this life
and supremely happy with Him
Forever in the next.
Amen.

--Reinhold Niebuhr



Lindsay
For those who don't know of Reinhold Niebuhr, check out
http://www.leaderu.com/isot/docs/niehbr3.html

Nieburhr was a minister who later became a professor at Union Theological Seminary, NY. He was the author of several influential books which were part of my studies in the 1950's. He was a great social democrat--perhaps a little too liberal and left wing for Republicans, even some Democrats. However, his ideas did contribute to civil-liberties causes.

BTW, I like to think of myself as neither left wing, nor right wing. I take a feathers approach to the political economy. Feathers cover the whole bird. Without them, especially the tail feathers, the strongest wings would be out of balance and useless. Perhaps this is why the world is in the mess it is in. The struggle between the left and the right is not good for the goose.
lucid_dream
Joesus, commonplace advice and trite remarks, peppered through with an occasional veiled attack or low opinion estimate, are no substitute for thoughtful reflection and useful exchanges. Have you even read what I've posted in this thread, or are you just attacking an army of straw men. Talk about having issues.

You are what your deep, driving desire is.
As your desire is, so is your will. As your will is,
so is your deed. As your deed is, so is your destiny.



Know where that's from (it's easy, I'm sure you'll find the answer online) and what it means?

Or can you tell me where this one came from and what you believe it means?

The light of self-knowledge alone illumines all experiences... Within the atomic space of consciousness there exists all the experiences...From that consciousness all experiences expand...In the twinkling of an eye this infinite consciousness experiences an epoch within itself.


Or pray tell me what this means and whence it is derived:

Galvanism, so long as the pile lasts, is also an aimlessly and ceaselessly repeated act of self-discord and reconciliation. The existence of the plant is just such a restless, never satisfied striving, a ceaseless activity through higher and higher forms, till the final point, the seed, becomes a new starting point; and this is repeated ad infinitum; nowhere is there a goal, nowhere a final satisfaction, nowhere a point of rest.
Lindsay
QUOTE
BTW, I like to think of myself as neither left wing, nor right wing. I take a feathers approach to the political economy. Feathers cover the whole bird. Without them, especially the tail feathers, the strongest wings would be out of balance and useless. Perhaps this is why the world is in the mess it is in. The struggle between the left and the right is not good for the goose.
In addition to the above I did not want to leave the impression that RN was far left. He was, but only in the early part of his ministry. In his later days, he did come back to balance. To really sample his writings, check out:
http://www.religion-online.org/listbycategory.asp?Cat=37

Joesus, and LD. It would be interesting, for me, to know a little bit about your theological and/or philosophical backbround and your attitude towards what others believe. Perhaps this can help us in promoting the art of dialogue/conversation.

In what sense are we all, including me, preaching to or teaching others? How can we share concepts and ideas in the spirit of dialogue. BTW, I am not adverse to learning from others, especially if they have access to knowledge of which I am unaware.

BTW, it is almost 2:00 AM in the Toronto area. The weather here is: No snow, and just above freezing--0 Celsius. I am off to bed.
lucid_dream
QUOTE(Lindsay @ Feb 15, 10:46 PM) *
Joesus, and LD. It would be interesting, for me, to know a little bit about your theological and/or philosophical backbround and your attitude towards what others believe.


I can't answer this without offending people. To put it nicely, I am open-minded but critical. I was brought up in a catholic environment for a few years in youth, and even believed in your garden-variety god that you say grace to at dinner, but as soon as I began reading and assimilating other's thoughts, I knew Christianity and other religions were a crock. There is no excuse for them. You can say that they're opium for the masses, but that's not a good reason to keep them around or to be sympathetic. Naturally, I differentiate between the truly stupid religious people who take the bible or other holy works literally, and the thoughtful sheep, who consider themselves christians or whatever, but are more intelligent yet not strong enough of mind to break free from their religous bonds. To the former, no sympathy, only disdain. To the latter, pity and respect if it's deserved. True religion is to be found in direct experience, not doctrine. Thus the parrots of the bible will get my foot in their mouth. I have had unfathomable experiences, and now I am moving towards the next stage if my will permits it, before old age overtakes me. My time is short; hence my lack of patience.

Joesus
QUOTE

Joesus, commonplace advice and trite remarks, peppered through with an occasional veiled attack or low opinion estimate, are no substitute for thoughtful reflection and useful exchanges. Have you even read what I've posted in this thread, or are you just attacking an army of straw men. Talk about having issues.


I think in your last post you said something like:
QUOTE
I can't answer this without offending people.

I'm not responsible for your interpretations of what I say as you are not responsible for the response you get from speaking your own mind. We do not crawl inside the minds to trigger the switches of response and feeling that one feels by our intentions when we speak. We may try to do so at times but the reality is that we have free will to choose how we follow thoughts and ideas and how we wish to live our lives.
You evidently see me the way you wish to no matter what I might feel or intend to portray in my messages. C'est la Vie
We feel threatened by what we see outside of ourselves when it lives inside of us making us believe we are victims to the outside with no control over our own choices to discrimate between truth and illusion. This mirror is often ignored because it isn't recognized.
QUOTE


You are what your deep, driving desire is.
As your desire is, so is your will. As your will is,
so is your deed. As your deed is, so is your destiny.

The deepest desire of the human is union with God.
The destiny of every human is this end result in the awareness and experience. This does not mean anyone is separate from God it simply means that as long as the awareness and knowledge of life continues in varying degress of understanding the best we can think of is what we create for ourselves in thought feeling and action.
Our thoughts have a ripple effect in the manifest reality of experience.


QUOTE

Know where that's from (it's easy, I'm sure you'll find the answer online) and what it means?


A verse from a translation of the Upanishads. Commentaries always vary from one translation to another but I gave you mine rather than the one from Eknath Easwaran.
QUOTE


Or can you tell me where this one came from and what you believe it means?

The light of self-knowledge alone illumines all experiences... Within the atomic space of consciousness there exists all the experiences...From that consciousness all experiences expand...In the twinkling of an eye this infinite consciousness experiences an epoch within itself.


Reminds me of Vasishta's Yoga

When one knows the Self one knows everyone and everything. All things are united in the One consciousness so it is in that which all things are found and known.
QUOTE

Or pray tell me what this means and whence it is derived:

Galvanism, so long as the pile lasts, is also an aimlessly and ceaselessly repeated act of self-discord and reconciliation. The existence of the plant is just such a restless, never satisfied striving, a ceaseless activity through higher and higher forms, till the final point, the seed, becomes a new starting point; and this is repeated ad infinitum; nowhere is there a goal, nowhere a final satisfaction, nowhere a point of rest.

This last one I have no idea where it comes from and I wouldn't know what it means to you or what you want me say about it to help you try and figure out where I am coming from. But if you wish to tell me what it means to you I can certainly comment on it if you wish.

Lindsay. It isn't really important where I came from. I don't think its relevent unless you wish to project where you think I am going by thinking you know where I am coming from.
I find no reason to let anyones beliefs interfere with my own nor do I think my beliefs would interfere with anyone elses. The only time beleifs become a threat is when somebody feels the need to find a place of measure to compare beliefs to that system of measure and then judge them from that point of measure.

In your theological studies have you ever studied the middle way Buddha describes? JJ Dewey had a great way of describing it in terms that are relevent to scripture.

Lev 19:15 Ye shall do no unrighteousness in judgment: thou shalt not respect the person of the poor, nor honor the person of the mighty: but in righteousness shalt thou judge thy neighbor.

Deut 1:17 Ye shall not respect persons in judgment; but ye shall hear the small as well as the great; ye shall not be afraid of the face of man; for the judgment is God's: and the cause that is too hard for you, bring it unto me, and I will hear it.

Jn 5:30 I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.


This kiind of follows along the lines of what quote from the Upanishads is saying about the Self and the light of the Self.
When one unites with God or Spirit and leaves the identities of the Ego behind the The inner light of the Self speaks without distortion of beliefs that are constantly changing.
When Jesus said "I and my Father are one" he spoke of the living presence within the Body that was immortal, omniscent and invited by preparing the body and mind for its arrival through Prayer/meditation/purification. In doing so and having set aside all illusions of lesser beliefs of the ego presence all judgment is made through the heart or the living connection between spirit and flesh or the unmanifest and the manifest.
All great masters know through their own experience and the Teaching they followed that there is no judgment in God or spirit other than to meet each moment right on cue with what is needed by the wandering soul seeking experience to give them more insight to the source from which it came and freedom from any self imposed boundaries.
There are no limits to the human condition other than those that are self imposed.
Lindsay
It is 11:00 AM in Toronto. Snow started, early this AM. It stopped after it dropped about 2 inches of wet snow. Freezing rain in the area for the next while. Then getting colder. Typical January in Toronto. Fortunately, the snow belts are north and south (Buffalo, NY), of us.

Shortly, I will be off to a regular luncheon discussion group, which I moderate (I am not the guru), sponsored by the Family Life Foundation, which has been going on for over 30 years.

Topics are centered around what is happening in the media and we compare it to stories and teachings in the Bible, or other sacred literature. We have open-minded believers, agnostics and atheists. Needless to say the discussion if often animated. But always in good taste.

BTW, keep up the dialoguing/conversing. We can always agree to disagree agreeably, I trust and hope. I will read your stuff more carefully and respond in more detail, later.

guest
QUOTE
"So what would you identify as the source of this issue?"



that which percieves it

to be

as an

issue
Guest
QUOTE(guest @ Feb 16, 09:00 AM) *

QUOTE
"So what would you identify as the source of this issue?"



that which percieves it

to be

as an

issue

And what is it, that percieves the issue as an issue worthy of attention, and what is that going to do about the issue?
guest
QUOTE
And what is it, that perceives the issue as an issue worthy of attention


That which perceives

QUOTE
and what is that going to do about the issue?


What issue?

Lindsay
LD, tell me see if I understand your message, or not. I have arranged what you wrote so that it makes sense to me. Change it where you feel it needs to be fixed.
QUOTE(lucid_dream @ Feb 15, 11:18 PM) *
I was brought up in a typically Catholic home and community. When I was a child, I went to mass with the family, said grace at meals, etc. However, things were oh so narrow and dull. I was not overly or positively impressed.

As soon as I got old enough, with the help of the media, I began to pay attention to what was going on in the world around me. I began to read, to listen to the opinions of others and to think for myself. I made up my mind that all religions, including Christianity, had nothing that made sense to me.

If being critical of others and saying this offends people, so be it.

However, I am open-minded.

Also, I am offended by truly stupid religious people, the kind who take the Bible, or other holy books, literally, .....I have no sympathy for such people, only disdain.

However, I feel pity for those Christians, Muslims, Jews, whatever, who are good and intelligent people but who are, obviously, not intelligent or strong enough to break free from their religous bonds. In a way, I pity them.

For me, true religion is to be found in direct experience, not in doctrines.


LD, I have no idea what you mean by: "I have had unfathomable (?) experiences, and now I am moving towards the next stage if my will permits it, before old age overtakes me. My time is short; hence my lack of patience."

What are you impatient about? What is it you want to get done? Do you dread old age?

What, for you, constitutes a "true religion"? Is there no place for communities of believers? Or should we all be rugged individuals?
Rick
QUOTE(Guest @ Feb 15, 04:19 PM) *

I agree with your general idea about religions. But religion is only one form of self-deception. If some one did not subscribe to any religion but had some other form of self-deception, that would also be harmful. I suggest that you focus on self-deception as the most basic evil. Have you thought about this idea? This is a friendly suggestion and not a criticism.

Self-deception is one thing, but religions propagate themselves by deceiving others. While self-deception is key to the well-meaning practice of proselytizing, the hoodwinking of the innocent (especially children) is the greater evil.
ontologicalrealist

[/quote]

guest,

what is your understanding of self-deception and harmfulness...what is evil?
[/quote]

Hi,

What is self-deception? I would give one example. You have heard being said about someone that he is in denial. Being in denial is one form of self-deception.

I am willing to expand on this after I hear some responce.

ontologicalrealist
Lindsay
QUOTE(ontologicalrealist @ Feb 16, 04:19 PM) *

....What is self-deception? I would give one example. You have heard being said about someone that he is in denial. Being in denial is one form of self-deception.
What on earth is an ontological-realist?

BTW, when Rick writes "...religions propagate themselves by deceiving others", I wonder if he will deny it if I say:

Rick, because this is not the first time you have made a similar statement, you seem to be addicted to making the sweeping generalization that all religions are evil.

Furthermore, given that human beings, by nature, seem to be hard-wired to be religious--in one way or another--anyone who thinks that a sizeable number will abandon the religious component of their nature anytime soon has got to be living in denial of reality.

Joesus
QUOTE


What issue?



Exactly.. cool.gif
OnlyNow
Lucid Dream, I think I get where you're coming from about the religion thing.

I just revisited the first few paragraphs of the bible and noted that right off the bat things don't add up. God created the light of day and the darkness of night (day 1) prior to the creation of the sun (day 4). It's obvious that this passage did not emanate from a divine intelligence but rather from a human writer who didn't get that virtually every bit of our world's daylight comes from the sun. I could go on and on from there, but why bother? If even one part of the bible is illogical/impossible/wrong, then how can anyone rely on this book as the true word of God? I have a sneaking suspicion that every world religion can be proven fallible in a similar fashion.

What are we left wiith?

Going back to square one. Let's forget everything--and I mean everything--that any religion has tried to teach us about "God."

I'd be a lot more comfortable as an atheist if nothing existed at all. No God, no consciousness, no me, no you, no universe, no space, no thing. But the fact of the matter, it's evident that something does exist. Either this something arose out of nothing, or this something ALWAYS existed. If it arose out of nothing, then "something" must have caused THAT, and you're still left with...something. And you know, this something will always be around, won't it? Are there any other alternatives? It all sounds pretty magical to me, impossible to comprehend through religion, eastern thought, western science or anything else we've come up with. I wonder if our limited brains are even capable. Sure, we can analyze and expound on aspects of this something, but getting to the real meat of the question--What IS it? HOW is it here? Why? (I can't even figure out the right question.) We hum the melody and strive to learn the lyrics, hoping to understand the song. Maybe one day we'll get there. But that will never begin to address the mystery that there's even a song at all. To me, the concept of God is no more outrageous than this eternal song...this something that we all KNOW exists. Maybe God IS the song. Just a thought.
lucid_dream
OnlyNow, you hit the nail on the head. Your experience with the bible is not peculiar to the bible; it is true in general for all religious scriptures and doctrines. These religious works invariably contain a great deal of hand waving because the writers of scripture are a lot like car salesmen in that they are trying to sell you on the idea that they know something about God, and they will talk and talk, and blow so much hot air to fill the hindenberg, in order to convince you, the reader, that they are saying something significant. But the actual content of their bombast can usually be summarized in a few sentences. The problem is that these "religious authorities", these "religious car salesmen", are in the same boat that the most ignorant knaves are in, but by elevating their assumptions to unquestionable truths, they dupe the gullible and the weak-minded, and they acquire a small allegiance to their fantasies. Such is the way of religious institutions. If they are not functioning as vain social events for people of shallow mind to put their heads together and cluck like chickens, then they function as outright shams by trying to dupe the weak with fantasies from "religious authorities" who apparently can't contribute to society in a positive way. Oftentimes these religious car salesmen are just pawns themselves, being played by wiser car salesmen who have long since passed away. If only their foolish fantasies died with them, but no, as Rick pointed out, religions propagate themselves by duping others.

Lindsay, your rewording of what I said is nothing like what I said, and there are no minor edits I can make to make your rewording convey what I originally said.

QUOTE(Lindsay @ Feb 16, 12:57 PM) *
LD, I have no idea what you mean by: "I have had unfathomable (?) experiences, and now I am moving towards the next stage if my will permits it, before old age overtakes me. My time is short; hence my lack of patience."

you are a man of God by profession, and you do not know what I am talking about? Regardless of whether consciousness is the same light shining through each of us, and perhaps all the universe, the form of my consciousness is temporal, is fleeting. My state of self-awareness is a form of consciousness. Death, old age, and time in general, destroys all forms. Hence, my time is short. The unfathomable experience is exactly that. To explain more would be to fathom it, and this is not possible with the limitations of human language.

Joesus, the answers are Brihadaranyaka IV.5 (one of the Upanishads, like you noted), Yoga Vasistha (congrats, was not expecting you to get this but I figure you must have recognized "atomic space of consciousness" as one of the distinguished terms used in the Yoga Vasistha), and Schopenhauer's "The World as Will and Idea". Schopenhauer is trying to convince the reader that the kernel of reality is will, a never-ending striving, a ceaseless activity, a continuous flux; there is not only no rest for the wicked, but no rest for anything, anywhere, anytime. This is in contradistinction to those who preach that stasis and timeless being are of the essence of reality. Clearly, you know something of Eastern philosophy, but it is a shame that you have neglected Western. Why is that? If you are ignorant of great concepts of Western philosophy, how can you expect to teach others of truth when you have much to learn yourself?

In fairness, my interpretations are:
Mt 7:6 - do not share or give important things or wisdom to those who will not appreciate it.
Eccles 8:17 - that even the wisest men do not know and cannot fathom the full works of God.
Cor 2:9 - that the reward for those who love God is beyond our senses of sight and sound, but is of the heart.

Again I ask, what is there of wisdom in this, or any of the bible for that matter? I would like to hear your interpretation.
Rick
QUOTE(Lindsay @ Feb 16, 09:00 PM) *

Furthermore, given that human beings, by nature, seem to be hard-wired to be religious--in one way or another--anyone who thinks that a sizeable number will abandon the religious component of their nature anytime soon has got to be living in denial of reality.

On the contrary, the fact that I have overcome my own hard-wired human inclination toward lazy acceptance of the easy answers provided by religion gives me hope that my words are doing some good. I have never said I deny the importance of the human emotion of reverence. I merely warn that it is our human duty to be sure that our reverence is not misguided or diverted by charlatans. Reason is the nature-given tool to accomplish these things.
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