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carpenter
post Apr 30, 2003, 07:36 AM
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Hi!
I saw an invitation in the Ishaya Tradition board and could not resist checking out what is happening here.

Raising consciousness is the only game in town left. Becoming aware of the unbounded infinite reality within us is the doorway to absolute freedom. My entire existence is dedicated to  live and walk like Christ did. And the great thing is that it isn't a silly dream but a reality that one can choose to manifest here on earth if one has the desire and dedication. And a teacher who has traversed the path return, who can show the way.

Carpenter
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Shawn
post Apr 30, 2003, 08:29 AM
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it's nice to have you with us, Carpenter, and I'm delighted that you didn't resist the invitation on the Ishaya Tradition board.  There are many paths that can be, and have been, traversed.   Someone called 'Carl the Magician' posted at http://brainmeta.com/quotesubmit/quotesubmit.php that 'Jesus would be ashamed if he knew what his followers acted like and believed.'   It's an interesting statement, I think, though it's too bad he didn't go on to elucidate what he thought Jesus would have approved of.  My point being that we should be critical of those who profess to speak in Jesus' name, or anyone elses, or who profess to show 'the path'.   We should be critical and not blindly accept.  We should be critical until we experience the 'truths' for ourselves, and that in the absense of such direct experience, we must remain wary, or at least to some extent, sceptical.

I hope we can be of some help to you here at this forum, and that if you have any questions, or any comments, that you won't hesitate to take them up here.

namaste,
Shawn
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carpenter
post Apr 30, 2003, 08:58 AM
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You know Shawn, how would you recognise a teacher if one would happen to come your way? That is an interesting and absolutely vital question, not perhaps to everybody but some of us. True Teacher never ever tries to give you his/her Truth. True Teacher knows that the only way truth would have any impact or significance would be through your own direct experience. And The Teacher knows the path to that since he is an embodiment of that truth. living walking statement of truth, as was Jesus. Therefore it is for you to experience that within yourself and if it does resonate with you then you have something to line up with.

I see the value of discernment since that is probably what you mean. But there comes a point where absolute trust is needed. You cannot reason every choice you make. Heart knows no reason and it is from the heart that we learn to live in freedom. Or perhaps more accurately from the union of the mind and the heart we can experience and live the infinite God that permeates everything always.

Shawn how did you come about to create this site?what are you after in this life? (I presume this is your creation, of course it is regardless of anything since you are here)
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Shawn
post Apr 30, 2003, 03:17 PM
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hello Carpenter,

my apologies if I offended with the Jesus quote.  Truth be told, I'm very critical and sceptical of many "wise men".  It's the will to power operating under the pretense of enlightenment.  Many "wise men" just want you to believe that they're wise, and that's where their power comes from.  I'm not saying Jesus was false, but I'm sceptical of a lot.  There are many ways to interpret what people say, including what Jesus said in the bible.  So what can you make of it?  Certainly, you have to interpret him metaphorically for the most part, but what I find humorous is that some people try to read him as a Buddhist, while at the other extreme, there are people who take him literally.

I do not place my faith in Jesus, nor in Buddha, nor in any other "wise men".  I place it in myself, in my experiences, in what I am.  Perhaps this is a question of temperament and personality, I don't know.  Perhaps you have to be somewhat manic to understand where I'm coming from, and also to have experienced 'I' as 'It' instead of the more familiar and personable 'I'.

For me, absolute truth is Being.  We experience but a spark of this in everyday life.  But when you experience the full-blown cosmic inferno, it changes everything.  

I agree with you that we cannot reason every choice we make.... In fact, looking over your post again, Carpenter, it seems we agree with much, though I do not have the respect for Jesus that you seem to, because I think I'm more critical of "wise men" than you perhaps.  What do you think?

take care,
Shawn

p.s.  about why I created this site, there are many reasons, but the main one is to share my ideas with others who are interested, and also to get feedback from people over those ideas or others posted on mind-brain.com .  

Regarding what I'm after in this life....
I have an obscure page at this site at http://brainmeta.com/qa.html where it lists the following:

"To love completely. To obtain lasting physical and emotional intimacy. To shake the earth. To make time stand still. To start a revolution. To develop my own school of thought and wage epic battles against formidable opponents. To be extreme. To see if I have any limits. To take man higher. Self-actualization. "

Please bear in mind that this was written at least a couple of years ago by me, though I don't think I'd modify it much today.  smile.gif
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carpenter
post May 01, 2003, 06:13 PM
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hey Shawn, I am not in the least offended by anything you wrote. I am sure dear Jesus is not ether. I don't know`much about bible and I have not attempted to interpret the holy words. I am talking more about the experience of him in consciousness. The experience of his presence.

Words mean little to me anymore. Experience is everything. Truth can only be realised within my own experience. Anything else is just not cutting it. So I know where you are coming from. And the role of a true Teacher (like Jesus) was and is to push people to turn within and find the source of all that is on the inside. And thus will the truth be realised. And this means the annihilation of the little ego self in favour of the cosmic self that knows its absolute and unbounded nature.

Yes, I think we agree at a deeper level and see the new reality as it is opening.



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Shawn
post May 01, 2003, 06:37 PM
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hello Carpenter,

I'm glad you're not offended, and agree with you that we both agree at a deeper level.  But now the looming questions:  how to take it to the next level?  How to further open the new reality?

any ideas on this?  are you a teacher?

namaste,
Shawn
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carpenter
post May 02, 2003, 12:58 PM
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Am I a Teacher? I wish I could claim being a Teacher. But not yet can I say that. In one sense we are all teachers always but When I refer to Teacher with big T I mean someone who can guide another to enlightenment and to the death of the ego. I have an enlightened Teacher guiding me and surely there will be a day when I will carry on playing my part in the lineage of enlightened Teachers.

What is the next step? The next step for me was to learn the simple techniques That Ishayas teach to experience consciousness directly. To go to the root of all. To realise the true form of your self which is the formless unbounded consciousness beyond all experiences and realities. I surrendered my life completely and utterly to the Ishaya path. Ishaya means for consciousness or for christ consciousness. In other words all my  efforts and energy is directed to realising myself and being stable in That. Experiencing the unity of all. That truly there is only one. living in conscious experience of That at all times and expanding into experiencing higher states of consciousness which far exceed any descriptions.

What is the next step? For you it depends how far you want to go. how much are you willing to give up? By giving up I mean more of your attachments and ideals and thoughts and experiences. Are you willing to give all of them up or do you still want to continue the game?Play in the dream a little while longer. Both are valid options. Mostly people still cling on to their dream worlds. Very few are willing to let it go absolutely.

One thing that Jesus said was: seek ya first the kingdom of God and all else will be added unto you. An interpretation> if you are willing to give up everything in order to realise the source of all you will have everything and more. You become everything.

Now what do you think about that Shawn? Great questions by the way.  
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Dan
post May 02, 2003, 01:30 PM
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Hey Carpenter


if one seeks to totally give up on attachments, ideals, thoughts and experiences, then what good is to have a guide?  It seems that attachment to a guide (through trust) is a shortcut for going through such a deep purification, in order to secure clarity and focus in the face of unmanageable chaos.  But in granting such power to a guide, one becomes bound to their will.  Lineage is a function of such binding, thus forfeit of one's will to the lineage is the cost of such salvation.  

any thoughts?
8)
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carpenter
post May 03, 2003, 09:03 AM
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A guide or a teacher as I call is one who has surrendered his/her ego and individual existence to the cosmic existence and to the will of God, to the supreme being, to the infinite awareness. Through surrender one comes to enlightenment. There is absolutely no other way. One is then bound to the will of God but in reality there is nothing else but the will of God. It is only the belief in separation and judgements that create the illusion that there is  a little individual self that runs the show and has a will of its own. We have a choice to make and there lies our power. We can devolve or evolve, that is our choice. We can move toward the true form of the self or we can maintain the individual little ego existence.

I surrender my will to the higher guidance knowing and trusting that it is ultimately the only way to break through the illusion absolutely to live enlightenment knowing the infinite on the inside and knowing the infinite on the outside. It is not capitulation, it is stepping into who I really am. True master lives always in absolute surrender to God even when the full realisation is "I am That" and "thou art That".

The purpose of the lineage of enlightened Teachers is to maintain the path of return in its absolute purity. To hold the truth so that those who wish to realise it for themselves can do so ( but only through their own choice). There are some who have walked the path without a Teacher and have become fully enlightened or have perhaps already been when they were born. But this is very exceptional. The fact is that as more and more people reach out for higher states of consciousness there is need for Teachers who can give the guidance. Who can point out the subtleties and trickery of the ego.

You see Dan, the funny thing is that the ego is also getting enlightened. It can mimic the enlightened masterfully but it will never get there. This is precisely why there is even greater need for the Teacher. One needs a Teacher to pop the final veil of illusion. the belief in separation. One realises that I and my Teacher are one and the same, that I have always been my own Teacher. But this is not intellectual, it is experiental and the teacher is there to validate that experience. And then than experience of union expands to include all that is. It is matter of discipline and work however.  To be consistent in your choice. Teacher gives you nothing but keeps pushing you into your own heart, into your own choice. Teacher can give you nothing because you already have everything. You only need to realise that.

I find it rather interesting that I write all this since I really have no intention to do so. Someone must want to hear this.
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Shawn
post May 03, 2003, 10:05 AM
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I think many people wanted to hear this, Carpenter, particularly me.   In fact, I think some of your thoughts should be posted in a more prominent location on this site so as to reach more people, but that's up to you, friend.

We all live in the creations of our mind.  In all likelihood, we're deluded by our finite personal memories and ego into believing that we're finite, just an infinitesmally small part of some Totality.  Perhaps our core, our Ground of Being, what we truly are, is that Totality.  Perhaps all 'I's are really just one 'I', an 'I' that gets deluded by personal memories and a localized sensory/motor apparatus into believing that there are many 'I's, and that it's not just one 'I' looking out thru many.    

But I ask you, what is the benefit to believing in such things?  Beliefs structure our lives, allow us to interpret our sensations, add meaning.   But we should look critically at beliefs.  

The belief in the One, that we are One, is intriguing indeed, but what is this belief?  Is it just a belief, like a crutch for getting thru life?  Or is there something more there?  

Our consciousness is finite and transient.  Indeed, our whole life is just like a tree falling down in a forest.  If no-one is there to hear it, does it actually make a noise?

Beliefs are cute little things.  We can be all deadly serious about them, and we can be playful, and even be altogether sceptical about all of them.   What truly matters is our conscious experience, our Being.  Within each of us, this Being is finite.  We postulate infinite Being and infinite consciousness, and even experience super-transcendent states of consciousness that would appear to validate such beliefs, but let's be honest with ourselves!    Are we not that tree that falls in the forest that everyone wonders whether it made a noise cause no-one saw it fall?  Are we not terrified that this is all we are, just a finite, transient thing?  Isn't it comforting and empowering to 'believe' that we are the Totality, that we are One, that we are Infinite Consciousness, deluded by our egos into believing we're finite?   It's very comforting, I think.  But we must be critical of such beliefs, or else we run the risk of getting lulled into the deep sleep of delusion.  

Those who have experienced 'I' as 'It' will know where I'm coming from, if they have the courage and strength to be honest with themselves.    

Many of us will die believing that the greater Self lives on, that they are immortal, that death of the personal self is just an illusion.  But I wonder, is this sufficient?  Is this being honest with ourselves?   Is this any different  from the charge that some had launched against Christianity (and particularly their belief in an afterlife and heaven)  as just being "Opium for the people".  

Have we substituted one Opium for another?
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Dan
post May 03, 2003, 11:33 AM
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I agree, the guide is within.  Any external guide is suspect always.  Trust nothing but within.  I also agree, most won't handle a pure inner journey, they will probably end up living on the street and babbling incoherently.  They reached too fast without shielding properly against the onslaught of confusion.  The shortcut of a lineage is both a blessing and a curse.  The blessing is in the safe passage that is granted, the curse is in the binding to the will of the lineage.  Be careful, there's no point in winning freedom if you are immediately reowned

8)
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Dan
post May 03, 2003, 11:38 AM
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nothing persists forever except Awareness

and that is enough


actually, that's the problem.  We can't turn awareness off.  forever......

8)
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rhymer
post May 03, 2003, 02:19 PM
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If I am not me who am I, and who are you to tell me???

I do like the quote though!!!
best regards, Bill (or is it?)
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Dan
post May 03, 2003, 03:08 PM
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no, you are not not-you which means that you are you

I guess


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carpenter
post May 03, 2003, 04:06 PM
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i would be happy to be in a more prominent location having this exchange but for now this seems to be the place.

Belief in the one is not a belief, it is an experience of such tangible quality that it brakes all beliefs and constructions of the mind. First starting out you need trust and faith that it is so but eventually there will come a point where the reality of everything settles into your conscious awareness. It is beyond beliefs and perceptions. It is pure awareness.

Ego would like you to be so critical that you can never wake up from the deep dream that we call life. So critical that there is no room for innocence and humility.

I experience pure consciousness. And that is who I am regardless of the faith of this particular body. Death can be overcome through the realisation that you are not your body, you are not your thoughts, you are not your emotions, you are not your actions. Then who are you? pure consciousness that is having a multidimensional experience happening in the moment of now.

Only ego can die. Immortality is in our inherent nature.

Dan what is freedom? Have you experienced true freedom?

Freedom comes from absolute surrender like I said in the earlier post. I have seen climpses of that freedom but I am not stabily and consistently living from it yet. to me it is a matter of choice to do so but some of the old habits and grooves are still in the way. In other words the ego is still having a go with me.

The binding will of the lineage...through that binding will one realises the absolute. How can one be reowned by the absolute. Absolute is one, it is beyond owning anything, it is beyond the movements of this world. It is the foundation of all of creation.

Rhymer, you are not who you THINK you are. And it is valid question, who are you? And me telling you has absolutely no value. Therefore I am not telling you. But if you want to find out, there is a way to that realisation, a quick way, a ruthless way. Only if you want to though.

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Dan
post May 03, 2003, 07:29 PM
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Carpenter, I'm interested in hearing of this quick, ruthless way

this sounds fascinating

Is there anything you can tell me?

;D
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Shawn
post May 04, 2003, 08:17 AM
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I know the tangibleness of the experience of 'oneness'.  However, beyond the 'perception' of oneness, we often (or, at least I do) additionally began to conceptualize and hypothesize that 'oneness' is a general principle, something more general than our particular experience of it, something with an existence independent of our particular experience of it.  The alternative is to believe that "All that is" begins and ends with your consciousness, which is absurd I think.   Our consciousness is but the dimly lit spark of something vast.  The fundamental question is, what am I?  Am I that infinite totality (call it Infinite Consciousness or whatever), or am I just a finite, transient blip of consciousness, soon to fade away into nothingness and utterly lost within Infinity?  

My point is that even if we hypothesize or believe that our 'Ground of Being', our true Self, is Infinite, is Brahman, is Totality, then does that really change anything?  This is what I meant about substituting one opium for another (i.e., substituting belief in the oneness of ourselves with Infinite Consciousness for the antiquated belief in heaven and afterlife).   Even if we have the tangible experience of oneness, this is all good and fine, but can this experience be used to validate our belief in oneness?   Please note that the belief in oneness I'm referring to is not confined to our mere experience of it, but rather is a belief in the general oneness of everything (that is, it's an inference or extrapolation from our experience).

Now, let me take up something that you said, Carpenter:

"I experience pure consciousness, pure consciousness that is having a multidimensional experience happening in the moment of now.  Only ego can die. Immortality is in our inherent nature."

Ok, so your belief is that you = pure consciousness, which is immortal.  This is one of the teachings of the Yoga Vasistha, that we are Infinite Consciousness, and that ego and all mental constructions are illusions.  

Let us imagine that we possess just non-reflective consciousness, that we live completely in the Present, in the Here and Now.  Thus, we have no memory (complete amnesia), including the ability to form new memories and even have working memory.  Thus, for instance, I wouldn't remember what I just did a few seconds ago, much less what I did days or years ago.  In fact, I wouldn't be able to reflect on anything that I perceived or experienced.    This is pure non-reflective consciousness living in the Here and Now.  

Is this really what you experience your true nature to be?    
And if so, then what do you make of reflective consciousness?  Is this just an illusion?  Surely it's not.  But if it's not, then what is it, if not illusion?

Perhaps I should play Devil's advocate and argue that our true nature necessarily includes reflective consciousness, in addition to non-reflective consciousness....but let me try a slightly different approach.

Let's imagine that you have absolutely no memory of your experiences before the age of 18. That is, for all intents and purposes, your life 'began' at age 18 since you can't remember anything before then.   You hypothesize that you experienced things before age 18, but since you have absolutely no memory of this, it doesn't really mean much or have any practical or even experiental value for you.   I would argue this is exactly the same thing as hypothesizing that our true nature is 'pure consciousness'.   If we are 'pure consciousness', then you and I are one and the same consciousness, but clearly I can't reflect on your past experiences, just as you can't reflect on mine.  You don't have access to my memory stores, just as I don't have access to yours.  So, what's the value of believing we're one and the same consciousness if it doesn't have any practical or even experiental value?   Surely, we can't experience that we're one and the same consciousness, can we?  We may enter states of consciousness where we experience 'I' as a depersonalized 'It', but it doesn't follow that that depersonalized 'It' is the same as what lies at the core of everyone else, now does it?  It's just a conjecture, a belief.     In a similar manner, we conjecture that 2 electrons are identical because they're indistinguishable (quantum mechanically speaking, not classically speaking), so too do we conjecture that the impersonal 'It' we experience is one and the same as others, or that this pure non-reflective consciousness we experience is one and the same 'stuff' that other people experience.

So what's my point?  I'll take this up in my next post!
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Shawn
post May 04, 2003, 08:43 AM
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My point is that we have to be careful not to delude or brainwash ourselves.  I'm serious!   In Islam (and many other religions), great emphasis is given  to giving yourself unto the Will of Allah (or God).   But I seriously think this has unintentionally (or perhaps this was the 'intention' of some unethical people) brainwashed more than a few people.  One also need only think of cults and the methods they employ to destroy the individual's will and make them like mind-less, unquestioning and uncritical automata.    I think this brainwashing effect was introduced by religions, but was exploited to the extreme by cults.  We have to be careful about brainwashing ourselves.

Even in Yoga, it places great emphasis on experiencing states of meditative consciousness, which supposedly support it's philosophical tenets (usually from Hindu works like the Upanishads or Bhagavad Gita).  But these meditative states of consciousness, what are we to make of them?   If we get into one of these states of consciousness, then it doesn't necessarily mean we experience anything closer to truth than we do ordinarily.  In fact, meditative states of consciousness are specially designed to still the mind and to restrict many or all types of thinking, including critical thinking.   Thus, we cannot be critical of such states of consciousness while we're experiencing such a state of consciousness!  But does this mean that such states of consciousness are beyond criticism?  No.  The answer is to go to other states of consciousness, where critical thought is possible, and critically evaluate meditative states of consciousness for the possibility that maybe they aren't so reflective of the truth as books on Yoga proclaim, and that maybe, in fact, they may be specially designed so as to quell any possibility for criticism because their validity and value wouldn't be able to stand up to it.

Perhaps I'm being too critical about meditative states of consciousness, but I think it's a welcome counter-balance, particularly in guarding against blind or brain-washed acceptance (which, I should note, I don't accuse anyone here of falling prey to such things).

I agree with you, Carpenter, that  pure consciousness is certainly a multidimensional thing, but I think you place too much emphasis on non-reflective consciousness (consciousness in the present) over reflective consciousness (which I believe holds considerable value).  Please correct me if I've misinterpreted you, though.

Also, the multidimensional nature of consciousness rules out the possability of giving any privileged position to meditative states of consciousness, I think, since such states are just one (or a few) among a potentially infinite number.

namaste,
Shawn
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numinoso
post May 04, 2003, 09:08 AM
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A saying I heard from some Buddhists in West Africa. (I was also surprised that there are some, even in a small city.) IT IS ONE AND IT IS NOT ONE


Shawn, you were speaking of being critical about one's believes. I honor your rational approach to carpenter who seems a bit off-balanced to me, too. But you got to be critical upon yourself also. That's why I would say it's not proven that states of consciousness where you are united with the One don't exist, I even think it's possible to be united with another person and perceive h' memories, at least in a certain way.

Personally, I don't have such experiences, but I see no reason to forbid them. So, if carpenter really perceives everything, and also the memories of other people, then I would be fine with it. And if it's not him, then perhaps somebody else.

I mean, we don't really know. We don't really understand consciousness, and it's not proven that it's just a product of the brain. See my ideas about 'the Beginnings of Time'. There is no striking counterargument against consciousness being the first step of existence, and it makes much more sense than a Big Bang.

But I also appreciate your being critical about carpenter's talk. In the end it will help him to broaden his horizont and become more realistic, as this will likewise help Shawn and me and everyone else.
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joe
post May 04, 2003, 02:50 PM
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Being critical to the degree that there is no direction or inward movement driven by faith would be about as constructive as a dog chasing its tail. You could for all intents and purposes dissect every thought and idea that comes to you and keep your mind active in the process until the end of time.
Anyone can touch and experience the infinite one but few would recognize it or establish a lasting relationship with it.
For the most part the analytical mind will try and separate illusion from reality and try to find an experience in both. This always keeps the mind split and also keeps the "I" or ego in place.
Brahman does not separate the infinite from the finite because the relationship of the ideas and experience come from the same place. The movement of consciousness and the interaction of the Self or consciousness recognizing itself.
Being present does not leave the past moment or even the future moments ideas or memory out of the present moments experience, being present leaves no attachment or binding power of another experience to cloud or influence the present experience. With the awareness continually established in the infinite consciousness Self witnesses the events without attachment or investment.
The personality will always play a part, a role, be active in the appearances of life until it isn't any more a personality, when the ego is dead (and I'm not talking about cosmic ego). Cosmic mind can never separate itself from the whole and once the Ego dies it is freed from its limited idea of being different, separate from anything including anothers experiences and thoughts.
Forgive me for being so bold as to make these statements without the introduction of "this is my belief or experience" but this truth is the same truth for all. The only argument can come from someone who says this is not my experience.
Anyone can have an experience and another not share it but that doesn't make it less than real.

Vedic sciences, Religions based on the descriptions of the enlightened are signposts to the realities that exist in the movement of consciousness. People can debate all day about the origins of reality and in the end it don't mean squat when it is all united in the same infinite field of the one.

Consciousness recognizes consciousness, or as another wise man said genius recognizes genius. If you are not established in the infinite awareness and stabilized in the recognition of everything being united in that the best you can or could do is to evaluate and interpret from the collection of your experiences and form a belief system. That is not enlightenment.
Unless a person is willing to surrender everything they see, feel, think and act upon to a greater consciousness, other than the single experiencing "I" that holds a collection of Ideas, and lives in a world of protection and fear, there is no room to be anything other than what you can conjure yourself and the world to be.
The mind left on its own to interpret the reality of life will at best throw a dart at an unknown target hoping to hit something if interest and value. Even if it hit the target would it be noticed?
There is a story of a group of pioneers that landed their ship in a remote island inhabited by simple natives uneducated to the ways and means of the pioneers. Their ship was to them something that floated from the sky as it came upon the horizon. When the ship fired its cannons signalling their approach the natives couldn't hear it because it wasn't within their conscious ability to interpret, their awareness was tracking life from denser levels of understanding.
Similarly someone who has had an experience of the infinite may take the past impressions of their life and try to fit the expansive experience into the categories of the past, but would he/she expand on the infinite or expand the library of their collection of ideas and beliefs? How would they be able to take the awareness and focus it on the infinite one without the guidance from one who has done it? You can't.
Enlightenment is a grand Idea to many but the truth of the matter is you cannot approach it until you are ripe, or ready to let go if the illusions that build limited realities for the underlying  infinite reality that supports and dissolves all realities. You can debate its points, you can talk about its value, you can share your experiences but these things will not change you, YOU have to change and then everything else will change. That is timing, Kharma, Dharma and beyond control. You will not be able to stop yourself from approaching it, experiencing it and drawing everything that you will need to support your enlightenment. Until then at best you can talk about it and rationalize all you want about the ideas of surrender and the ideas of the infinite one. Everything will be suspect and you will never know anymore than you will allow yourself to believe and experience at the level of awareness and consciousness that you live.
All is Brahman that is Truth but the Ego clouded in its beliefs will interpret that from gross levels of stress and mental impressions. Until one is ready to conquer the foundations of beliefs by replacing them with something else they will continue to build their world on the past impressions and projections of the minds limited abilities and attempts to contain the infinite in an idea or many ideas.
A Teacher will recognise a student and speak to the level of his or her heart, as the saying goes when the student is ready the teacher will appear. Until then God does not cast pearls before anyone is not ready to recieve. The elusive teachers that so many wish to find, to question and analyze will forever remain invisible and support the Egos vision of mistrust and fear until the Self awakens within to burst forth like the pheonix rising from the ashes of its own ignorance.
Carpenter: You may see some value in your interchange here but I hope it is from strengthening your awarness of the Self and the infinite and not elevating the self in front of the many, or trying to enlighten the illusion.
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Dan
post May 04, 2003, 03:01 PM
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[glow=red,2,300]How would they be able to take the awareness and focus it on the infinite one without the guidance from one who has done it? You can't. [/glow]

this brings to mind the koan "what came first, the chicken or the egg"

apparently the buck had to start somewhere, somebody had to take the awareness and focus it on the infinite one without the guidance from one who had done it  ???
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joe
post May 05, 2003, 08:17 AM
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Whenever civilization has moved so far from union with the infinite in awareness and in mind there has always been and there will always be the subtle connection that will remain within. It patiently awaits to be enlivened or to be nurtured. Sometimes you have to pull the arrow back in order for it to shoot forward to break the boundaries of illusion.
There have been some that have been born into the awareness and know nothing of suffering, of illusiory ideas of fear, doubt, hatred or judgment. They cannot guide another who needs to overcome the slippery ego because they haven't travelled that path, they can only point the way to what they can describe and that will always be subject to interpretation.

Nothing is impossible, and it is possible to awaken to the Self however it doesn't seem to present itself as a probability, for history does not present the fact in any kind of regularity. It does however present the possibility on a regular basis.
Humanity continues to follow the same ideas and they always end up in the same place, at the bottom of a 6 foot hole with a nice marker that tells a nice story of their endeavor to follow and live the dream all the way till the end.
We have made a hallmark or glorified song to the efforts of humanity to shine in the darknesses of life when there is only darkness in the mind.
It's like sitting in front of the TV of life, with the remote control watching the same channel as our ancestors with the finger on the same button saying to ourselves, " My parents watched this channel and their parents before them and so on and so on, and they all died with their ideas of what life is...... I think I'll watch the same channel and maybe something different will happen to me."
It's so easy to lift a finger to change the channel. Unfortunately not so well known to lift humanity beyond the struggles of fear and predjudice that establishes the beliefs that life is struggle, competition is the norm and standards that create lesser and greater human beings are the reality.

When you are permanently anchored in the infinite awareness all life expands around you and in you at the same time, there is no darkness, only light.
When you are anchored in idea then only the mind can expand on its thoughts of what it believes. Belief can change the infinite never changes, experience can change even experience of the infinte changes while you evolve but again the infinite never changes. Freedom from ideas that are anchored in limitation is beyond happiness, beyond the ups and downs of the senses and the judgment of the feelings you may experience.

Anything is possible perhaps you will fall into it as so many have suggested. However the suggestion always follows the egos protection of individuality in its limited understanding of surrender to something that may take away free will. That can never be taken away regardless of what you experience or think, only your ideas can change and your experiences taken away to be replaced by something greater. Enlightenment cannot be contained in an idea any more than God can.
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Dan
post May 05, 2003, 11:06 AM
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bear with me on this one, dude.  You offer so much for thought, I felt I should go point-by-point in order to best offer to you my reactions to what I read in the statements you wrote.   ;D

QUOTE
Whenever civilization has moved so far from union with the infinite in awareness and in mind there has always been and there will always be the subtle connection that will remain within. It patiently awaits to be enlivened or to be nurtured. Sometimes you have to pull the arrow back in order for it to shoot forward to break the boundaries of illusion.

this makes sense.  It's like saying that when society becomes pathological to the extent that individuals become psychologically bound, a little 'introspective' action can help restart things in a healthy direction

QUOTE
There have been some that have been born into the awareness and know nothing of suffering, of illusiory ideas of fear, doubt, hatred or judgment. They cannot guide another who needs to overcome the slippery ego because they haven't travelled that path, they can only point the way to what they can describe and that will always be subject to interpretation.

this sounds like the people who like what they got from life and go with it.  The other people need 'therapy' in order to find such actualization, and a person without experience in such processes would likely be unable to deal with the vast array of pitfalls inherent in such a process.

QUOTE
Nothing is impossible, and it is possible to awaken to the Self however it doesn't seem to present itself as a probability, for history does not present the fact in any kind of regularity. It does however present the possibility on a regular basis.  

sounds good.  Actualization is intrinsically available, but it is not easy due to the limitations of minds and brains.  Assistance is usually required for most, although a few manage to pull it off blindly

QUOTE
Humanity continues to follow the same ideas and they always end up in the same place, at the bottom of a 6 foot hole with a nice marker that tells a nice story of their endeavor to follow and live the dream all the way till the end.  

such is life, eh?

QUOTE
We have made a hallmark or glorified song to the efforts of humanity to shine in the darknesses of life when there is only darkness in the mind.
It's like sitting in front of the TV of life, with the remote control watching the same channel as our ancestors with the finger on the same button saying to ourselves, " My parents watched this channel and their parents before them and so on and so on, and they all died with their ideas of what life is...... I think I'll watch the same channel and maybe something different will happen to me."  
It's so easy to lift a finger to change the channel. Unfortunately not so well known to lift humanity beyond the struggles of fear and predjudice that establishes the beliefs that life is struggle, competition is the norm and standards that create lesser and greater human beings are the reality.

channels exist because of the need to survive.  Changing channels is risky because survival is not guaranteed.  Those who survive and come back with vigor lead us, while the rest who change the channel sit around monastaries hallucinating about nothingness

QUOTE
When you are permanently anchored in the infinite awareness all life expands around you and in you at the same time, there is no darkness, only light.  

and you just sit there, maybe recruiting others to do the same

QUOTE
When you are anchored in idea then only the mind can expand on its thoughts of what it believes. Belief can change the infinite never changes, experience can change even experience of the infinte changes while you evolve but again the infinite never changes. Freedom from ideas that are anchored in limitation is beyond happiness, beyond the ups and downs of the senses and the judgment of the feelings you may experience.

freedom from thought is also doing nothing.  To intentionally sustain such an empty state usually requires the belief that nothing needs to be done, implying that those who 'do' are deluded

QUOTE
Anything is possible perhaps you will fall into it as so many have suggested. However the suggestion always follows the egos protection of individuality in its limited understanding of surrender to something that may take away free will. That can never be taken away regardless of what you experience or think, only your ideas can change and your experiences taken away to be replaced by something greater. Enlightenment cannot be contained in an idea any more than God can.

it's the 'coming back from empty' part that is the problem.  becoming empty is just a matter of death of internal dialogue, loss of movement.  But if there is no movement, there is no action.  If action is believed to be unnecessary, then you have nirvana in this emptiness.  but if you feel some degree of action is important, this action needs definition in thought.  Faith in a lineage for enlightenment provides such definition, through acquisition of the dogma of the lineage upon passing through the empty state.  thus, binding to the will of the lineage occurs, or perhaps, to the intent of the lineage


8)
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numinoso
post May 05, 2003, 11:22 AM
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to joe:

I've heard that Atman = Brahman.
It seems like the unity you spoke of in the beginning. But I'm not sure what Atman in the Hindu sense means. Is it like the human soul, or the mind of an enlightened human, or everything in the individual. (Although the mind of unenlightened ones is not identical with Brahman, but this separation is just an illusion.)

Anyway, that's only a question about Hinduistic terminology. For all you said, I wholeheartedly agree.
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carpenter
post May 05, 2003, 12:24 PM
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Lot of lenghty exchange I see. Dear Joe black, am I elevating myself in front of the many? Am I enlightening the illusion? Or expanding my awareness of the infinite? That is a very subtle twist that can happen and I absolutely hear what you are saying. All of the above mentioned I can recognise in my experience to some degree if I am totally honest. It is however a matter of choice if I strenghten that twist or the purity of truth. Thanks for pointing that out for me. Like you know the difference is sometimes rather hard to see.

I find it humorous when people talk about brainwashing. That is exactly what we need. To wash away the delusions and stresses that continuously cloud our experience of the present moment and the presence of God. The only requirement is that you have the appropriate detergant to do the job efficiently and effortlessly.  

And Dan when you were asking about what would be the short cut, Ishayas teach simple mechanical techniques that will drive you to experience the source or the infinite awareness or whatever you may want to call it. That is an extremely efficient detergant and will take you to the door of everything if correctly and consistently used regardless of how much stress and crap you might have in the way.

Shawn, it does sound kind of weird to critically evaluate the infinite, omnipotent, omnipresent, omniscient awareness or God if you like. You can attempt to do that but only from the point of being separate from it. You may choose to do that  but I find my heart racing toward union with That instead of critically analyzing what it is or perhaps is not. Now that is a choice and mine has no more value than yours. They certainly lead to different experiences but it is not important.

And Joe, it seems like you were inspired to be lenghty and feed the minds with the purity of your words. Such is the flow of spirit I see.
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joe
post May 05, 2003, 02:14 PM
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The Atman is the thread of souls. Where all are connected to the one, each idea has a place in the interpretation of creation. In reality Time does not exist, it is a linear progression only as an idea to follow, to support creation.
Each creation has what is called natural law. Whatever you can dream of, that which supports it are the laws that bind it into creation and perception. From the beginning thought to all the secondary and following thoughts there exists a thread that binds them all together. I am the alpha and the omega, the beginning and the end, that sort of thing.

For Dan:
[Quote:When you are permanently anchored in the infinite awareness all life expands around you and in you at the same time, there is no darkness, only light.    


and you just sit there, maybe recruiting others to do the same]

Consciousness sits in the absolute, you live your life from a different point of reference. There is a saying, before enlightenment- chop wood carry water. After enlightenment- chop wood carry water. Outward appearances are definitely open to interpretation and so is the idea of enlightened behavior and living.

[Quote:When you are anchored in idea then only the mind can expand on its thoughts of what it believes. Belief can change the infinite never changes, experience can change even experience of the infinte changes while you evolve but again the infinite never changes. Freedom from ideas that are anchored in limitation is beyond happiness, beyond the ups and downs of the senses and the judgment of the feelings you may experience.  


freedom from thought is also doing nothing.  To intentionally sustain such an empty state usually requires the belief that nothing needs to be done, implying that those who 'do' are deluded ]

Interpretation of the enlightened or enlightenmet always waves silly little flags of reality based on beliefs. Freedom from thought feeling and action is as christ said, "I do nothing of myself for all that I do is of the holy spirit"
it takes a lot less energy to allow the nature of spirit to run through you than it does to filter, judge, interpret and get involved in the world as a responsibility or threat.  To flow with the river of life is effortless. One thing leads to another and what you do in thought and action comes without effort when you detach from the investment that comes from judgment in values that are based in illusions

[Quote:Anything is possible perhaps you will fall into it as so many have suggested. However the suggestion always follows the egos protection of individuality in its limited understanding of surrender to something that may take away free will. That can never be taken away regardless of what you experience or think, only your ideas can change and your experiences taken away to be replaced by something greater. Enlightenment cannot be contained in an idea any more than God can.  


it's the 'coming back from empty' part that is the problem.  becoming empty is just a matter of death of internal dialogue, loss of movement.  But if there is no movement, there is no action.  If action is believed to be unnecessary, then you have nirvana in this emptiness.  but if you feel some degree of action is important, this action needs definition in thought.  Faith in a lineage for enlightenment provides such definition, through acquisition of the dogma of the lineage upon passing through the empty state.  thus, binding to the will of the lineage occurs, or perhaps, to the intent of the lineage]

Faith is what drives one to experience themselves, how far you go with yourself is up to you. The lineage is not based on a belief if realised as experience. once you bind yourself to the illusions of beliefs then there is conflict in the many ideas and so you are forced from fear of losing yourself in an emptiness or loss of identity to continue to make choices for one thought over another, one idea over another,
There are no problems or limitations other than what we artificially impose upon ourselves. There is action only as an illusiory projection of the thoughts and there is stillness and emptiness in every thought feeling and action. Only Ego gets lost in the meanings that can't support the boundless infinite one as it struggles to bring it all back into a form it can control and understand.

Carpenter:
It seems there are no rules to the idea that size matters eh?

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Dan
post May 05, 2003, 03:05 PM
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sorry if I start irritating (I am getting kindof pushy, I admit), but you seem to be an earnest chap so I feel value in carrying on this exchange
tongue.gif



QUOTE
Outward appearances are definitely open to interpretation and so is the idea of enlightened behavior and living

how does one know how to live when one is enlightened?  surely this is not simply a matter of interpretation

QUOTE
Interpretation of the enlightened or enlightenmet always waves silly little flags of reality based on beliefs. Freedom from thought feeling and action is as christ said, "I do nothing of myself for all that I do is of the holy spirit"
it takes a lot less energy to allow the nature of spirit to run through you than it does to filter, judge, interpret and get involved in the world as a responsibility or threat.  To flow with the river of life is effortless. One thing leads to another and what you do in thought and action comes without effort when you detach from the investment that comes from judgment in values that are based in illusions


this sounds like blissful blindness.  Like the will has become an agent for an unknown intent.  This sounds like a collapse of will, although it also sounds like a collapse of need.  a 'will-less freedom'?

QUOTE
Faith is what drives one to experience themselves

I would say faith is what enables one to let go.  What drives one to experience themselves is need

QUOTE
The lineage is not based on a belief if realised as experience

the lineage is a dogma, a vehicle for the initiates to live through

QUOTE
once you bind yourself to the illusions of beliefs then there is conflict in the many ideas and so you are forced from fear of losing yourself in an emptiness or loss of identity to continue to make choices for one thought over another, one idea over another,

this sounds reasonable.  in fact, it sounds like people

QUOTE
There are no problems or limitations other than what we artificially impose upon ourselves.

is this like saying I can fly if I just stop believing that I can't?

QUOTE
There is action only as an illusiory projection of the thoughts and there is stillness and emptiness in every thought feeling and action.

it sounds like you don't understand action, rather, you are describing inaction

QUOTE
Only Ego gets lost in the meanings that can't support the boundless infinite one as it struggles to bring it all back into a form it can control and understand.

why would this concern the boundless infinite one?  is the boundless infinite one concerned about ego's confusions?

8)
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joe
post May 05, 2003, 05:43 PM
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QUOTE
sorry if I start irritating (I am getting kindof pushy, I admit), but you seem to be an earnest chap so I feel value in carrying on this exchange
tongue.gif


Q:
how does one know how to live when one is enlightened?  surely this is not simply a matter of interpretation
A:
How does one know when to take a breath? There is no thinking involved it is as automatic and natural as breathing. What is given up is the questions, for if there was a need for an idea to be met with a reason then omniscience provides any answer to any possible question.

Q:
this sounds like blissful blindness.  Like the will has become an agent for an unknown intent.  This sounds like a collapse of will, although it also sounds like a collapse of need.  a 'will-less freedom'?
A:
Blissful yes, blind? Hardly. Everything is known and seen. Will-less? More like uninvested. You go to a party to have a good time, maybe you do maybe you don't. If you have expectations you will be dissappointed if they are not met. If you go without expectations because you are of the capacity to appreciate anything that comes of it then there is no desire to change or hold judgment. Collapse of need yes loss of desires no. I think you are wanting to take this into the direction of a vegetative state.
Q:
I would say faith is what enables one to let go.  What drives one to experience themselves is need
A:
Faith is both, it seeds desire to break free from the limitations of the mind and its beliefs and allows one to let go of beliefs. It underlies the 10% level of the thinking mind and will always shine through the darkness even if it goes unnoticed.
Q:
the lineage is a dogma, a vehicle for the initiates to live through
A:
Dogma is a belief that remains in limitation. Lineage is a represetation of the Atma or the Sutra Atman, its understanding expands with the awareness as it focuses on the one. Once one expands beyond duality the lineage is just the self in many forms, the pieces it has placed first in the puzzle to see the picture of the Self. Useful boundaries and structure is used to break structure. Dogma tries to keep structure in place. Ego interprets the use of structure and useful boundaries as the repetition of the same limited, one sided approach to life that gives reasons to maintain its grip on individualism and judgment.
Q:
this sounds reasonable.  in fact, it sounds like people
A:
Its called the waking state of life
Q:
is this like saying I can fly if I just stop believing that I can't?
A:
Absolutely.
Q:
it sounds like you don't understand action, rather, you are
describing inaction
A:
I am describing enlightened action not action of the ego.One is defined in reference to principles based on solid form and physical energy, the other is based on effortless manifestation of form as Idea gives way to form so it is created, without effort, therefore effortless.
Q:
why would this concern the boundless infinite one?  is the boundless infinite one concerned about ego's confusions?
A:
There is never any concern, concern is interpretation of Ego this is just the game of ideas and what is created in the basic structure of ignorance (ignoring the infinite boundary-less) what is created in duality always has an opposite. Unenlightened/Separation/Duality V.S. Enlightened/Union/The One. When the idea was created to the pathway of ignorance it included the pathway of return. Here you are playing in it. How can you stop it when it is part of you?

8)

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Dan
post May 05, 2003, 09:47 PM
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dude that image is kindof gross, it seems like you lost your mind  tongue.gif

but enough about your morbid tastes, back to our fun debate


QUOTE
if there was a need for an idea to be met with a reason then omniscience provides any answer to any possible question.

who is this Omniscience?

QUOTE
Everything is known and seen. Will-less? More like uninvested.  If you have expectations, you will be dissappointed if they are not met. If you go without expectations because you are of the capacity to appreciate anything that comes of it, then there is no desire to change or hold judgment.

so knowledge is implicit, or non-reflective.  Doing without expectation is the way to go, because anything is just fine.



QUOTE
Faith seeds desire to break free from the limitations of the mind and its beliefs and allows one to let go of beliefs.

maybe Faith facilitates breaking free, but the desire to break free is not a product of faith



QUOTE
Dogma is a belief that remains in limitation

Dogma is canned enlightenment



QUOTE
Lineage is a represetation of the Atma or the Sutra Atman, its understanding expands with the awareness as it focuses on the one

is this a belief, or are you the Atma or the Sutra Atman expressing itself?


QUOTE
Once one expands beyond duality the lineage is just the self in many forms, the pieces it has placed first in the puzzle to see the picture of the Self.

I'm not clear here on your meaning.  Are you saying that 'lineage' is a personification of Atma, and that upon one's expansion beyond duality one also becomes Atma personified?


QUOTE
Useful boundaries and structure is used to break structure.

can one break boundaries and structure without using useful boundaries and structure?  if so, how?  and if not, one must then ultimately be left with a minimum amount of structure that one cannot break (  surely the structure that was used to break structure cannot be used to break itself!)


QUOTE
Dogma tries to keep structure in place.

Dogma is a scaffold through which one finds structure for self


QUOTE
is this like saying I can fly if I just stop believing that I can't?
A:
Absolutely.

does this mean you can fly?  


QUOTE
I am describing enlightened action not action of the ego.One is defined in reference to principles based on solid form and physical energy, the other is based on effortless manifestation of form as Idea gives way to form so it is created, without effort, therefore effortless.

so enlightened action means you go with the flow, and whatever happenes is 'enlightened action'?



QUOTE
concern is interpretation of Ego. this is just the game of ideas and what is created in the basic structure of ignorance (ignoring the infinite boundary-less) what is created in duality always has an opposite. Unenlightened/Separation/Duality V.S. Enlightened/Union/The One. When the idea was created to the pathway of ignorance it included the pathway of return. Here you are playing in it. How can you stop it when it is part of you?


my take is that you trade intentionality for agency, where you become an agent of an externally intentional 'flow' that is believed to be 'omniscient'

tongue.gif
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joe
post May 06, 2003, 10:54 AM
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dude that image is kindof gross, it seems like you lost your mind

I certainly hope so!  

but enough about your morbid tastes, back to our fun debate


Quote:if there was a need for an idea to be met with a reason then omniscience provides any answer to any possible question.  


Q:who is this Omniscience?
A:That'd be you, or the essence of who you are, only ego keeps you from being all of that, and who you believe you are.

Quote:Everything is known and seen. Will-less? More like uninvested.  If you have expectations, you will be dissappointed if they are not met. If you go without expectations because you are of the capacity to appreciate anything that comes of it, then there is no desire to change or hold judgment.  


Q:so knowledge is implicit, or non-reflective.  Doing without expectation is the way to go, because anything is just fine.
A: From Union yes, From duality and from the Ego knowledge is reflective and limited to beliefs. True knowledge knows no limitations or boundaries and is Omniscient or all knowing.
During the Mahabharata war Krisna danced in the joy of Gods creation and sang of the joy which he felt in the perfection of the death that was the result of the struggle between good and evil to show Arjuna that the body and the world were just a display of thoughts and ideas to illustrate what changes and dies is not real. The consciousness that resides in the soul lasts forever. The people were born in that reality to grow up and die specifically in battle at that time in that place and it all happened exactly as it was supposed to. God makes no mistakes. All Action is perfect, it only becomes suspect or imperfect in the eyes of judgment and standards of good and evil which are products of EGO.



Quote:Faith seeds desire to break free from the limitations of the mind and its beliefs and allows one to let go of beliefs.  


Q:maybe Faith facilitates breaking free, but the desire to break free is not a product of faith

A: How can you separate the two, or any of it?
Faith is the pilot light that remains lit, even if you don't use the stove it still has the capability to work as you have the capability to self realise. you could say it sparks the drive or the action is a result of the drawing towards an expanded awareness like a moth to a flame, only ego keeps the flame dormant. Whats the difference? The end result is the same and the rest is plain ol' semantics.



Quote:Dogma is a belief that remains in limitation  


Q:Dogma is canned enlightenment

A: Same animal yes

 

Quote:Lineage is a represetation of the Atma or the Sutra Atman, its understanding expands with the awareness as it focuses on the one  


Q:is this a belief, or are you the Atma or the Sutra Atman expressing itself?

A: Yes


Quote:Once one expands beyond duality the lineage is just the self in many forms, the pieces it has placed first in the puzzle to see the picture of the Self.  


Q:I'm not clear here on your meaning.  Are you saying that 'lineage' is a personification of Atma, and that upon one's expansion beyond duality one also becomes Atma personified?

A: Yes and no, one never is less than the Atma or Brahman interpreted reality is an image of conscious ideas as is the lineage. There is only one, the rest or the many are rays of the one in may aspects of its totality, like a thread with all connected together. Once one realizes this or unites with this they are the one, the image may remain for what can and will be created will always be, the past and the present exist simultaneously, there is really no beginning nor an end.


Quote:Useful boundaries and structure is used to break structure.  


Q:can one break boundaries and structure without using useful boundaries and structure?  if so, how?  and if not, one must then ultimately be left with a minimum amount of structure that one cannot break (  surely the structure that was used to break structure cannot be used to break itself!)

A: it is possible to awaken without any effort or action, without self discipline and it is also possible for pigs to fly but contained within the basic structure or natural law that holds any idea together are boundaries that are held collectively in place by the consciousness that created it. If Pigs started flying it would be normal and probably seem as if it was always so. Within any structure there is never anything that will be of such contrast as to tear the fabric of the collective apart. You are the center of your creation and if you change it changes. You are always cohesive within the structure of your creation and the Kharma or desire which creates it creates the road or the Dharma in which you travel. You may take scenic routes but the destination and beginning point(Birth) is set like a story. Being multidimentsional however you may realise any life and any possibility but each has its structure or it would not be experienced as anything. Whatever the structure, you can work within has its foundation and so to break structure you need to replace it with another until the awareness can associate its self once again as pure awareness, as the creator of structure rather than attached to it or victim to circumstance. Anything is possible, you could just pop like a kernal of popcorn and awaken.


Quote:Dogma tries to keep structure in place.  


Q:Dogma is a scaffold through which one finds structure for self

A: It can also be the pin that pops the balloon of illusion. In my own personal experience it was too ridiculous for me to swallow, to take anothers word of God, especially when he/she had no experience other than the passing of words and ideas into beliefs that someone would take for granted and accept as reality.


Quote:is this like saying I can fly if I just stop believing that I can't?  
A:  
Absolutely.  



Q:does this mean you can fly?

A: Are you saying that I can't and if so how would you  know or ever prove it?  


Quote:I am describing enlightened action not action of the ego.One is defined in reference to principles based on solid form and physical energy, the other is based on effortless manifestation of form as Idea gives way to form so it is created, without effort, therefore effortless.  



Q:so enlightened action means you go with the flow, and whatever happenes is 'enlightened action'?

A: From Union there is no action that is not of the one source or Pure Consciousness.



Quote:concern is interpretation of Ego. this is just the game of ideas and what is created in the basic structure of ignorance (ignoring the infinite boundary-less) what is created in duality always has an opposite. Unenlightened/Separation/Duality V.S. Enlightened/Union/The One. When the idea was created to the pathway of ignorance it included the pathway of return. Here you are playing in it. How can you stop it when it is part of you?  



Q:my take is that you trade intentionality for agency, where you become an agent of an externally intentional 'flow' that is believed to be 'omniscient'

A:As are you But only as an idea. We are niether an agent or a recipient. Is there any place you and I do not fit into the scheme of things and is there any idea that cannot be thought of and possibly be applied to life? You could be an agent of question and doubt, or the pursuer of truths but then there would have to be truths to be persued if that was the case.
I don't state a truth I state the truth for what is true for one is true for all. There are as many truths and ideas as can be imagined and yet they all come from the same source. The infinite cannot be contained in any Idea as a truth but the truth can exist in any idea and each plays a part in the expression of that truth. It exists because it can and what can be, is.  
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