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Dan
post May 06, 2003, 02:38 PM
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stop copying my opening remarks, it makes me feel like you are my disciple.  Well,.. maybe that's ok....carry on........  8)


QUOTE
Q:who is this Omniscience?  
A:That'd be you, or the essence of who you are, only ego keeps you from being all of that, and who you believe you are.

so why not just say "I" then?  like, [glow=green,2,300]if there was a need for an idea to be met with a reason, then I provide any answer to any possible question.  
[/glow]
that sounds good to me


QUOTE
True knowledge knows no limitations or boundaries and is Omniscient or all knowing.

so 'truth happens'

QUOTE
During the Mahabharata war Krisna danced in the joy of Gods creation and sang of the joy which he felt in the perfection of the death that was the result of the struggle between good and evil to show Arjuna that the body and the world were just a display of thoughts and ideas to illustrate what changes and dies is not real. The consciousness that resides in the soul lasts forever. The people were born in that reality to grow up and die specifically in battle at that time in that place and it all happened exactly as it was supposed to. God makes no mistakes. All Action is perfect, it only becomes suspect or imperfect in the eyes of judgment and standards of good and evil which are products of EGO.

this sounds like reducing experience to causal action, thus the 'freedom' is in the realization that freedom is an illusion

QUOTE
Faith is the pilot light that remains lit, even if you don't use the stove it still has the capability to work as you have the capability to self realise. you could say it sparks the drive or the action is a result of the drawing towards an expanded awareness like a moth to a flame, only ego keeps the flame dormant. Whats the difference? The end result is the same and the rest is plain ol' semantics.


so 'faith' is a potential, waiting to ignite the process of seeking self-reunion.  What triggers the release of faith?


QUOTE
Quote:Lineage is a represetation of the Atma or the Sutra Atman, its understanding expands with the awareness as it focuses on the one  
 

Q:is this a belief, or are you the Atma or the Sutra Atman expressing itself?  

A: Yes

so why do you refer to Atma in the third person, if Atma expressing itself is you?


QUOTE
one never is less than the Atma or Brahman interpreted reality is an image of conscious ideas as is the lineage.  There is only one, the rest or the many are rays of the one in may aspects of its totality, like a thread with all connected together.

I am You are We are One is It

QUOTE
Once one realizes this or unites with this they are the one, the image may remain for what can and will be created will always be, the past and the present exist simultaneously, there is really no beginning nor an end.  

So when one stops seeing many, one becomes 'the one'.  and when one becomes 'the one', past and future is seen as a single unchangable edifice and hence is 'simultaneous'.   movement has been reduced to causal action, 'will' and 'choice' cease to hold meaning

QUOTE
it is possible to awaken without any effort or action, without self discipline and it is also possible for pigs to fly but contained within the basic structure or natural law that holds any idea together are boundaries that are held collectively in place by the consciousness that created it. If Pigs started flying it would be normal and probably seem as if it was always so. Within any structure there is never anything that will be of such contrast as to tear the fabric of the collective apart.

So structure is blocking spontaneous awakening,  and structure is a collective agreement that is internally stable

QUOTE
You are the center of your creation and if you change it changes

Is this like saying that if I take my clothes off and toss them, there will be clothes lying around me?

QUOTE
You are always cohesive within the structure of your creation and the Kharma or desire which creates it creates the road or the Dharma in which you travel. You may take scenic routes but the destination and beginning point(Birth) is set like a story

this sounds like total causality again, but with the added spice of 'scenic touring'

QUOTE
Being multidimentsional however you may realise any life and any possibility but each has its structure or it would not be experienced as anything. Whatever the structure, you can work within has its foundation and so to break structure you need to replace it with another until the awareness can associate its self once again as pure awareness, as the creator of structure rather than attached to it or victim to circumstance.

suddenly you are speaking of intentionality, where choice is involved and causality is no longer total.  sounds like an about-face, probably a very sensitive locus in this dogma

QUOTE
Anything is possible, you could just pop like a kernal of popcorn and awaken.

that sounds inspiring

QUOTE
It can also be the pin that pops the balloon of illusion. In my own personal experience it was too ridiculous for me to swallow, to take anothers word of God, especially when he/she had no experience other than the passing of words and ideas into beliefs that someone would take for granted and accept as reality.

a dogma has to fit or it feels unacceptable

QUOTE
Quote:is this like saying I can fly if I just stop believing that I can't?  
A:  
Absolutely.  
 
 

Q:does this mean you can fly?  

A: Are you saying that I can't and if so how would you  know or ever prove it?  

now you just sound stupid
but, if I'm wrong, I know where you can make a bunch of money.
http://www.randi.org/research/index.html


QUOTE
From Union there is no action that is not of the one source or Pure Consciousness.

what I don't understand is how ther can be action other than from the source.  How can there be anything but Source?  All action is then of Source, there is no lesser action.  Even 'ego' is Source!

QUOTE
I don't state a truth I state the truth for what is true for one is true for all.

so you think

QUOTE
There are as many truths and ideas as can be imagined and yet they all come from the same source.

So they are all good, right?

QUOTE
The infinite cannot be contained in any Idea as a truth but the truth can exist in any idea and each plays a part in the expression of that truth. It exists because it can and what can be, is

so truth isn't a fomalization, but a formalization can be made of truth.  Possibility is the definition of truth; what is possible is what we get, and what we get is what the truth is about


8)

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Dara
post May 06, 2003, 02:41 PM
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::)HU??   :smile.gif

Just had to add my "humor" to this thread here...lol

Love,
Dara! tongue.gif
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Dan
post May 06, 2003, 02:54 PM
Post #33


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Hey Dara

I'm having a good time with Joe, hopefully this shows.

;D

p.s. Joe, I've been editing, just in case you already read it
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numinoso
post May 08, 2003, 10:47 PM
Post #34


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Hi Dan, I just looked up your profile, and your email address is called nagual@... Do you have a slightest idea what nagual is or do you just use this word because it sounds fancy? Because your comments on Joe seem to be entirely tonal-based, like you didn't know anything about the mystery of the tonal and the nagual and the reunion of them two.
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Dan
post May 09, 2003, 06:40 AM
Post #35


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I am the nagual!

8)
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numinoso
post May 09, 2003, 11:16 AM
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In this case you should be able to fly like Joe. Why don't you go to the place you recommended to him and make these lots of money yourself?
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Dan
post May 09, 2003, 01:08 PM
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clearly you are not the nagual  ;)
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numinoso
post May 10, 2003, 06:18 AM
Post #38


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"The nagual and the tonal are in everything." - Don Juan, in some book of CC.

Why do you assume that I'm not aware of my nagual?
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Dan
post May 10, 2003, 06:57 AM
Post #39


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QUOTE
IN this case you should be able to fly like Joe.



it looked like you equated Nagual with the ability to fly, which makes no sense

8)
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numinoso
post May 10, 2003, 07:16 AM
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"For the nagual there is no ground, no water, no air." - I could go on with these quotes for years. (Doesn't mean they're my dogma, I only have a good memory.)

So, if you enter the nagual you can cover distances in an unlogical way. Calling it flying is not adequate, but better than calling it swimming.

Carlos: Did I fly like a bird?
Don Juan: Not like a bird, you dummy.

(That's from the part of the first book where he took the toloache.)

Also check the scene of the fourth book with the aviation office.

...

You really believe that Joe can't fly? Why?
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Dan
post May 10, 2003, 07:18 AM
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it seems you have read too many stories


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joe
post May 10, 2003, 08:23 AM
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Damn another person who wants to apply the logic of the real world.

That is an interesting if not entertaining thought. Too many books. How would one know when they have reached the ideal amount and is there a standard that is set in what happens when you read too many or not enough? Or maybe one shouldn't read any for the influence factor may be too great. But then again anyone can be influenced by habitual thoughts and even shiny objects that charm the mind.

Best we leave it all behind and lock ourselves into a safety zone of staying out of any belief to be right.

the foolish man seeks not to be wise, but to appear wise

You would be wise to seek to follow what God has put in front of you as possibility rather than not. Innocense of a child not the ignorance of possibilities and the avoidance of the unknown.
Interpretation of the world and its reality by wearing blindfolds is a slow if not painful process.
With your blinders on you see too much Dan.
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Dan
post May 10, 2003, 10:06 AM
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QUOTE
Damn another person who wants to apply the logic of the real world.

huh?

QUOTE
That is an interesting if not entertaining thought. Too many books. How would one know when they have reached the ideal amount and is there a standard that is set in what happens when you read too many or not enough? Or maybe one shouldn't read any for the influence factor may be too great. But then again anyone can be influenced by habitual thoughts and even shiny objects that charm the mind. Best we leave it all behind and lock ourselves into a safety zone of staying out of any belief to be right.

sounds like you need to go stand in the corner and learn to meditate properly!   wink.gif



QUOTE
You would be wise to seek to follow what God has put in front of you as possibility rather than not. Innocense of a child not the ignorance of possibilities and the avoidance of the unknown.

are you telling me this??

QUOTE
Interpretation of the world and its reality by wearing blindfolds is a slow if not painful process.
With your blinders on you see too much Dan.

and with your blinders, you see hardly anything  :P


8)
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numinoso
post May 10, 2003, 11:15 AM
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Dan, you have to learn to apply a philosophical correct way of thinking. First check Sir Charles Popper: "A general negative statement can never be proven." For example, someone says there are no black swans because he had never seen one. Can you think of a way to prove this opinion?

Next, where do you draw the border? Do you allow that synchronicities exist? Do you allow that telepathy exists? Do you allow that the dreaming body exists? Do you think physical laws make any sense in this field?

Actually, I wanted to write 'believe' instead of 'allow'. But it's not necessary that you believe it. You just shouldn't disbelieve it. Because then you're in a very uncomfortable position.
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Dan
post May 10, 2003, 01:00 PM
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QUOTE
Dan, you have to learn to apply a philosophical correct way of thinking. First check Sir Charles Popper: "A general negative statement can never be proven." For example, someone says there are no black swans because he had never seen one. Can you think of a way to prove this opinion?

it looks like you are chasing shadows here, num.  To insist that Joe can fly (without the assistance of flying technology) indicates that either you are not in touch with modern scientific understanding or that you are trying to play some kind of 'koan' game


QUOTE
Do you allow that synchronicities exist?

I allow that the psychological experience of synchronicity exists, but I do not allow that my mind produces 'acausal' events in the physical world.

QUOTE
Do you allow that telepathy exists?

transfer of information through yet unknown physical fields is a distinct possibility in my thinking, therefore there I allow the possibility of 'psychic' (for lack of better word) infomation sharing


QUOTE
Do you allow that the dreaming body exists?

same as earlier response, I allow that fields of interaction may exist that have yet to be scientifically recognized, and these fields may participate in embodiment of 'psyche' and may support unusual forms of activity

QUOTE
Do you think physical laws make any sense in this field?

all structure is reflected through a physical analogue, the question is "are we objectively aware of all structure?"


QUOTE
Actually, I wanted to write 'believe' instead of 'allow'. But it's not necessary that you believe it. You just shouldn't disbelieve it. Because then you're in a very uncomfortable position.

I feel quite comfortable, thank you!  tongue.gif


8)
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joe
post May 10, 2003, 08:19 PM
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.........Dan:all structure is reflected through a physical analogue, the question is "are we objectively aware of all structure?" .............

Structure is relative to beliefs. Are you aware that structure is supported by your beliefs and the analogue of your structure is meaningless to differing opinions. Therefore your opinion only has meaning to you. Although anyone can accept your structure and your interpretation it cannot be shared or experienced in the same way that you can experience it, without joining you in consciousness. If you can accept that then you can accept that you are not alone in your body and individuality becomes only an illusion as does all structure.

......Dan:either you are not in touch with modern scientific understanding or that you are trying to play some kind of 'koan' game

I allow that fields of interaction may exist that have yet to be scientifically recognized, and these fields may participate in embodiment of 'psyche' and may support unusual forms of activity........

 A possibility that there are reflections in possible structures that are not displayed or possibly not seen due to lack of understanding and limited vision?


Change your beliefs and the world around you changes. Ignorance may be bliss but everytime science provides a change in the interpretation of structure and you follow like the obedient sheep then another aspect of individuality is destroyed, and now you become lesser than the guiding  authority that you set before you.

If you are only bantering words back and forth to play devils advocate by playing both sides then what would be the point of your conversing in this topic other than to try and play king of the mountain?
How would you characterize yourself in this conversation?
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numinoso
post May 11, 2003, 06:30 AM
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QUOTE
same as earlier response, I allow that fields of interaction may exist that have yet to be scientifically recognized, and these fields may participate in embodiment of 'psyche' and may support unusual forms of activity


Dan, I can't believe that you wrote this. If we draw this further, and let me turn your attention to the point that everything is consciousness (see the thread in the science section: Physics and Consciousness, the one where you started wandering off the topic), then it's easy to understand that if we replace 'psyche' by consciousness and see the fact that the human body is but a construct of it, that Joe can fly.

As I wanted to tell you earlier, the nagual is an 'unusual form of activity', if you use it you can do things (among others) that heavier minds usually describe as flying, hence the analogy.But if you don't want to accept this then I don't understand why you don't ignore it. You actually have no tools at your disposal that could make you prove your believs.
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Dan
post May 11, 2003, 10:30 AM
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QUOTE
your opinion only has meaning to you.

sometimes I wonder if you read your own words

you are chock full of contradicting logic, like some kind of religious text.  You are truly ignorantly blissful (well, maybe not blissful so much as goofy)

8)


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Dan
post May 11, 2003, 10:40 AM
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QUOTE
Dan, I can't believe that you wrote this. If we draw this further, and let me turn your attention to the point that everything is consciousness (see the thread in the science section: Physics and Consciousness, the one where you started wandering off the topic), then it's easy to understand that if we replace 'psyche' by consciousness and see the fact that the human body is but a construct of it, that Joe can fly

Num, you're never going to convince me Joe can fly, such an argument is an exercise in absurdity.  You can convince me, however, that joe can dream that he is flying, or that maybe joe has non-corporeal elements that 'fly' in their respective universes.  I would simply not care, though, because I am not talking about those things.

QUOTE
You actually have no tools at your disposal that could make you prove your believs.

And you have no tools at your disposal with which to prove your claims.  
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numinoso
post May 11, 2003, 11:10 AM
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Dan, that's exactly the case. I have no intention whatsoever to prove to you that Joe can fly, in fact I don't even know if he really can. All I want to reach is to stop you from spreading your petty prejudices about things you don't really understand.

As Joe said, your opinion only has meaning to you. (Plus the rest of the herd you're in.) For beings who are inclined towards reality it's just talk.
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Dan
post May 11, 2003, 11:34 AM
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QUOTE
I have no intention whatsoever to prove to you that Joe can fly, in fact I don't even know if he really can. All I want to reach is to stop you from spreading your petty prejudices about things you don't really understand.

it sounds more like you want to believe joe can fly and you don't want to hear otherwise


QUOTE
As Joe said, your opinion only has meaning to you. (Plus the rest of the herd you're in.) For beings who are inclined towards reality it's just talk.

well,...pbbtbtbttbtbbt to you too   tongue.gif
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numinoso
post May 11, 2003, 11:54 AM
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QUOTE
it sounds more like you want to believe joe can fly and you don't want to hear otherwise


And what's wrong with that?
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Dan
post May 11, 2003, 12:55 PM
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I don't care if you choose to be delusional,.. so long as you are not affecting me.  Dig a hole and pretend away!

8)
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joe
post May 11, 2003, 01:27 PM
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I had an opinion once.............
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Dan
post May 11, 2003, 02:00 PM
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don't sell yourself short, Joe

you still have opinions, even if you deny them

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joe
post May 11, 2003, 02:16 PM
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Ya think?
actually I have a completely different experience but you are welcome to enjoy yours.
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Dan
post May 11, 2003, 03:40 PM
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thanks for telling me, I don't know what I'd do without you

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joe
post May 11, 2003, 04:52 PM
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Your sarcasm is so romantic..
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Dan
post May 11, 2003, 06:12 PM
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it's all for you, babe

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numinoso
post May 11, 2003, 10:21 PM
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Dan, I think there's some misunderstanding going on. Before we can discuss that topic coherently we have to find a common base. That means we should first of all agree on the interpretation of 'flying' before we can go into the details. I have made a list of how a human might possibly fly, it's up to you now to choose upon which of these concepts we should focus in our discussion.

How humans might probably fly:
1. By moving at great speed, thus getting lifted by aerodynamic laws. Like one of the aviation pioneers of Germany put it over half a century ago: If you have a strong engine even a piano will fly.
2. By getting inflated with gaseous matter lighter than air, probably with the origin of the intestines. A way of floating similar to balloons and zeppelines.
3. By emitting very strong farts. Taking off like a rocket.4. By moving your arms rapidly. Trying to fly like a bird.
5. By antigravitation. Ascending majestically.6. By transforming the body into a yet unrecognized structure. Thus employing quantum laws, perhaps even string theories, that transcend the commonly known object formula F=m1*m2/r^2 (units recalibrated towards omission of G).

If you have further ideas of how humans would fly we can enter them also. The next step would be to make a testing series to find out how this works practically, on the other hand you might prefer a theoretic discussion only because I suspect that you'd pass out if you see someone perform the act of flying in front of you eyes.
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