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> Religions Actual Usefulness, More Harm Than Good
Hey Hey
post Dec 01, 2006, 07:12 AM
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QUOTE(Joesus @ Dec 01, 2006, 07:03 AM) *

Truth can be cognized and is not illusive, just ignored.

OK J, the time has come. Tell us some truths.
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Joesus
post Dec 01, 2006, 12:44 PM
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Time is irrelevent, Truth is outstanding.
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Hey Hey
post Dec 01, 2006, 01:36 PM
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QUOTE(Joesus @ Dec 01, 2006, 05:44 PM) *

Time is irrelevent, Truth is outstanding.

So you can't actually give any examples, then?
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maximus242
post Dec 01, 2006, 01:56 PM
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Of course not, examples of truth are based on individual perception, what is true to Joesus may be false to you Hey Hey. The only one who can give examples of truth is yourself.

I suppose the one universal truth is there are no universal truths.
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Joesus
post Dec 01, 2006, 02:12 PM
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The one universeal truth is the absolute
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Flex
post Dec 01, 2006, 04:38 PM
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QUOTE(Joesus @ Dec 01, 2006, 11:12 AM) *

The one universeal truth is the absolute


To me truth connotes something universal~Truth is an axiom like A=A that is a truth. I don't care whos perception it is A will always be A
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maximus242
post Dec 01, 2006, 05:07 PM
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No. A=Perception of A
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Flex
post Dec 01, 2006, 05:10 PM
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QUOTE(maximus242 @ Dec 01, 2006, 02:07 PM) *

No. A=Perception of A


No A=A. A is an idea, and you perception of the idea and the idea itself are one in the same. Everything is in a constant state of flux. You perception of A will change over time as A itself changes but A will always = A
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Lindsay
post Dec 01, 2006, 08:14 PM
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QUOTE(Flex @ Nov 30, 2006, 10:20 PM) *

...WHAT IS A SICK RELIGION?
IMO, a sick religion is any one with leaders which advocate the following:

We are the one and only true custodians of the one true faith.
We have a hot line to the one true God, our God.
If necessary, we have the right to impose, by force, the one true faith on all people.
We have the right to define what is true politics, true education, including the sciences and the arts.
God, being infallible, has no need for democracy.
We expect the faithful to obey, pray and pay, without question.
=============================
What other points would you like to add?
You hit the nail on the head--I couldn't agree more.
Okay, the next questions are:
What is the best way to deal with sick religions?
What are healthy ones?
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Flex
post Dec 01, 2006, 08:18 PM
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A healthy religion would be one which still allows for freedom of thought, and that can change over time with society. The best way to deal with sick religions would be to promote free thought. If one has free thought they will not be indoctrined by sick religion.
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Lindsay
post Dec 01, 2006, 11:01 PM
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QUOTE(Flex @ Dec 01, 2006, 05:18 PM) *

A healthy religion would be one which still allows for freedom of thought, and that can change over time with society.

The best way to deal with sick religions would be to promote free thought.

If one has free thought they will not be indoctrined by sick religion.
Good point. I find that what you write is a good contribution to the dialogue.

Questions:
In the final analysis, how truly free is any one of us, in relation to family, community, nation, or the globe on which we all live?
In other words: To what extent are we free to do what we like?

More questions: Which is more important, the freedom of the individual, or the freedom of the collective? Or it is possible to balance them?
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Hey Hey
post Dec 02, 2006, 01:12 AM
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QUOTE(maximus242 @ Dec 01, 2006, 06:56 PM) *

Of course not, examples of truth are based on individual perception, what is true to Joesus may be false to you Hey Hey.

We have to be more specific as to what "truths" mean here. Do we mean universal laws, perceptions of the world out there, perceptions of our inner world of mind/consciousness etc?

Trouble is, if your comment on individual perception of truths is true (sorry!), then there will be many different possible truths, as we all perceive differently due to our different physiologies (sensors) and interpretations (cerebral capacity). How could we ever know which are the real truths?
QUOTE(maximus242 @ Dec 01, 2006, 06:56 PM) *

I suppose the one universal truth is there are no universal truths.

Rhetoric aside, what you say is true. But will we ever get closer to truths?
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Hey Hey
post Dec 02, 2006, 01:27 AM
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QUOTE(Flex @ Dec 01, 2006, 10:10 PM) *

You perception of A will change over time as A itself changes but A will always = A

... to you, but not to me or anyone else. We might be close but we will never perceive the same. Also, if A, or your perception of A, changes over time then what it becomes is no longer A. And ... A is only A for an infinitely small amount of time before it changes (and/or your perception of it changes), just as "now" is an infinitely small amount if time, so there is essentially no 'now", no time. This means that A is never A. In fact, there never was an A to be or not to be A. We are back to illusions again.
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Joesus
post Dec 02, 2006, 02:03 AM
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Actually, just because perception is in a perpetual state of change does not mean what is perceived changes at all, nor does it mean something doesn't exist.
The source of all creation and perception may be filtered by levels of stress in the nervous system but the universal source must be stable enough to support all perceptions regardless of how skewed they may appear, or perception of self and self perception would cease to continue and evolve.
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maximus242
post Dec 02, 2006, 12:42 PM
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While thats a valid possibility Joesus, thats dependant on the theory that what we percieve is based on something outside of our minds. But it is equally as possible that this could be a dream, hallucination or prehaps we have achieved a connection of consciousness' and we use this reality as a means to interact with each other.

Flex, god dammit A does not = A. I could go so indepth as to why but you wont listen anyways so I am not going to waste my time. Further more, A can = B, or go down multiple levels of the transitive property. Also if A=A then A remains undefined as it has no definiton and that which is undefined has no substance.

It is like saying a cat is a cat. If you were to look that up in a dictionary what would that tell you? Nothing unless you knew what a cat was.

If you tell a computer A=A it starts going psychotic because you have an undefined variable.

A is equal to the association of A which includes the perception of the object known as A which is comprised of various elements from the individuals reality. A=A means absolutly nothing, thats like if someone asks "whats water?" - "water is water" It meaningless. When you think of water, you dont see large letters that say water - you see various images and memories of water and that is what water is equal to!
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Joesus
post Dec 02, 2006, 01:42 PM
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QUOTE
While thats a valid possibility Joesus, thats dependant on the theory that what we percieve is based on something outside of our minds.

Theory based on what underlies all realities and supports all realities comes as a result of being out of our minds, or maybe it would be better said out of a mind connected to the heart and soul of the Self.

QUOTE
But it is equally as possible that this could be a dream, hallucination or prehaps we have achieved a connection of consciousness' and we use this reality as a means to interact with each other.

This is more than a possibility. When the mind is out of the experience of the present moment and searches backwards and forwards for a means of intellectual support other than the one most obvious in being, illusions are created, dreams of reality are manufactured in theories and sand castles.
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maximus242
post Dec 02, 2006, 08:55 PM
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Indeed, it would seem we are hoplessly trapped within ourselves.
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Joesus
post Dec 02, 2006, 09:01 PM
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Only from the ego and its point of reference in separation.
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maximus242
post Dec 02, 2006, 09:19 PM
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But to seperate oneself from thyself is to loose oneself altogether. Prehaps to escape this seemingly hopeless trap of perception, a person must change themselves in order to change the reality that surrounds them.
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Joesus
post Dec 02, 2006, 10:09 PM
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One way it has been described is to let go of the programs which are running in the mind and block clear perception.
The mind that is constantly running, recycling some 100,000 thoughts per day consumes more energy and stresses the nervous system.

One need only expand conscious awareness or remove all of the stress from the central nervous system to open the subtle senses.
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maximus242
post Dec 03, 2006, 02:27 PM
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Hmm, intresting idea. I suppose if you were to create a alternate reality within the mind, in which you have no stress, no worries, no cares, where your mind is completly clear... then this would be possible. First two things that come to mind which are capable of such a thing are hypnosis and meditation.
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Joesus
post Dec 03, 2006, 08:53 PM
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Wouldn't hypnosis only circumvent the stress?
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maximus242
post Dec 04, 2006, 05:33 PM
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Nope, at least it shouldnt, fact is hypnosis naturally relaxes a subject and relieves stress.
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Joesus
post Dec 04, 2006, 09:12 PM
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So your suggesting hypnosis can permanently wipe out the internal programming that creates stress.
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Joesus
post Dec 05, 2006, 01:54 AM
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yes
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maximus242
post Dec 05, 2006, 01:47 PM
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QUOTE(Joesus @ Dec 04, 2006, 07:12 PM) *

So your suggesting hypnosis can permanently wipe out the internal programming that creates stress.


No, it simply creates an alternate reality that is void of stress.

This causes the subject to become more relaxed in so called "actual reality"
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Joesus
post Dec 05, 2006, 01:53 PM
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"Actual reality" then falling into whatever is suggested by the hypnotist.
But what then happens to the internal programs taken on by the sense of will in the individual (memory), is it erased?
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maximus242
post Dec 05, 2006, 07:43 PM
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No, the internal programs of will and ethics are still existant.

The individual cannot be construed to knowingly do something that violates their ethics.

Hypnosis is simply a third party who by-passes the conscious and speaks directly to the obidient sub-conscious. The sub-conscious can still be ordered around by the conscious mind as well, sense of will is limited to the conscious mind, sense of morals and ethics is both conscious and sub-conscious.

The memories of an individual can be forgotten or suppressed or even changed. However it is a very difficult thing to cause a person to forget strong memories, it has a neurological imprint and requires a very deep level of hypnosis and even then it is only temporary unless hypnosis is redone every month or so. It is however fairly easy to make a person forget certain things, making them forget who they are entirely is known as Deep Hypnosis Identification. This is where they identify themselves as another person with a completly diffrent memory and personality.
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Lindsay
post Dec 05, 2006, 08:05 PM
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QUOTE(maximus242 @ Dec 01, 2006, 10:56 AM) *

Of course not, examples of truth are based on individual perception, what is true to Joesus may be false to you, Hey Hey. The only one who can give examples of truth is yourself.

I suppose the one universal truth is there are no universal truths.
Again, I tend to want to agree with you, Max smile.gif However, I am prompted to ask: What do we do with laws which have been established by scientific experiments?
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maximus242
post Dec 05, 2006, 08:38 PM
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Realize that science has been wrong before and will be wrong again.

Use the laws that give us benifit, discard the ones that bring us harm. Remember that all realities have laws and it is those laws which make them seem more real to us, the laws enhance our experience of reality.

Make your own decisions, decide your own truth. Thats the conclusion I came to and ive been happier because of it.

If you want a god, make a god, if you want a heaven then it shall be so. Realising that you can create your own truths, essentially makes you the god of your reality.

I do stress the fine line between making truths and dillusion, it seems as though you are still bound to work in the laws of your reality. In other words, every reality has laws, these laws define the reality and make it seem real to us. It seems as though we cannot violate such laws, only change the laws (dont forget 500 years ago the universe revolved around the earth). So whatever the laws are in your reality, you have to work with them.

So prehaps we are demi-gods of reality, as such, you can live whatever life you want to. Granted one cannot snap their fingers and become emperor of rome... but, you can create an alternate reality, snap your fingers and become emperor of rome. You could also restore the roman empire and proclaim yourself as emperor Ceaser II.

Alternativly, you cannot pull out the next great american novel from a magic hat. However you can create a alternate reality where you did, then reverse engineer the entire process to find out how to make the next great american novel and make it in this reality. The sub-conscious has the power to come up with the entire novel for you, why should you do the work when your uber powerful subconscious can do it for you?

Rules of reality are like those of a video game, they are there to make the experience challenging and fun, but there are glitches and ways to work around the rules too. These can be found either scientifically or philosophically.
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