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> Why are Buddhists so Lazy?, Buddhists have contributed nothing significant to society
Adrian.
post May 25, 2006, 11:19 PM
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QUOTE
Statistical evidence such as names, history of activity, comparison analysis of human achievement and potential, and a point of reference for the standard of measure for human worthiness. Evidence of whether activity or belief of one or a group of people has an affect on others be it positive, negative or indifferent, long term, short term, isolated, widespread.

Can free will can be compromised or inluenced by a group mentality due to the nature of the group influence or are some people deluded by their own inability to differentiate truth from illusion.
If one doesn't stand for one thing will they just fall for another.. etc. etc.



You have for some reason changed the topic of this post to "human worthiness." If you read the first post in the topic you will see that Lucid is citing contributions to society.

I think we could argue that any person who is kind is making a positive contribution to society, but that would only be to confuse what we call an accomplishment.

In my mind it is something that benefits the greater majority of people. Let's take for example western medicine. Doesn't a scientific discovery that aides everyone in survival benefit everyone?

So now we are back to my humble opinion. I think if I do a Google search on what a contribution to society is, see what the word means to most people and we come to a general concensus on the meaning of the term, then we will find that statistics will agree with Lucid. Especially if we are searching in my native tongue, English.

Will this make it truth? No, almost nothing can be said to be truth. Scientifically viable? No, that would be a chore.

Just another opinion, like your own.



QUOTE
Long term affects of progress in the name of dissatisfaction as opposed to inner stillness and movement created towards the education and understanding of universal harmony.


Why is it wrong to call someone lazy for only offering me intangibles? Why do you believe that universal harmony is a likelyhood when mankind has been at war since the dawn of history?

QUOTE
Focus on dissatisfaction and that is the seed that grows.


Doesn't this metaphor seem illogical to you? If I want my garden to look nice, I pull out all of the weeds first.



QUOTE
By the way, do you know Richard Gere?


I don't know Richard Gere, but I have seen him on TV, and he looks lazy to me.
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Joesus
post May 26, 2006, 10:19 AM
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QUOTE
You have for some reason changed the topic of this post to "human worthiness." If you read the first post in the topic you will see that Lucid is citing contributions to society.

The topic still remains as it was. dry.gif
If you look again he mentions significant contributions, implying what is worth valuing, (as in the English language) significant having or likely to have influence or effect : IMPORTANT (according to Webster) a comparative, (reference quote)
QUOTE
.... the contributions from various individuals throughout history
(generalized statement supporting the comparison), without a value system or common point of reference to make the comparisons, other than self projected vague observations followed by the label of LAZY
(an adjective describing the character of said topic), hence setting in the original statement a value of worth, leading to labeling and or category of character or characters who are significant to humanity..

QUOTE
I think we could argue that any person who is kind is making a positive contribution to society, but that would only be to confuse what we call an accomplishment.

Then it becomes an issue of worth according to personal values. Possibly a short sighted observation as was demonstrated by Lao Tzu in reference to the ignorance of accomplishments and awards attained by the Dali Lama.

If a mother gives love and support to a child, that child will more than likely be more stable and productive than one who is denigrated for what it can't do and is punished for not living up to the parents expectations.
This being an example of positive nurturing Buddhists such as the Dali Lama and the like may provide positive reinforcement of the mind so that it is unobstructed in achieving goals, and clear in activity.
What you focus on grows.

QUOTE
In my mind it is something that benefits the greater majority of people. Let's take for example western medicine. Doesn't a scientific discovery that aides everyone in survival benefit everyone?

That depends on the long term affects, and the natural course of the universe. Often people with best intentions step in front of and divert what is perceived as detrimental from taking its natural course of evolution in favor of a personal point of view.

Ever hear of Thalidomide?

I'll give you an example:
A man sees a struggling butterfly attempting to break free of its cocoon. The emerging butterfly appears stuck and unable to free itself. The man believes it is going to fail and die, so he cuts the cocoon and frees the butterfly. The butterfly then drops, spreads and flutters it's stubby wings, exhausted.
What the man doesn't realize is that the struggle stimulates growth hormones to make the butterflies wings grow and expand, and now that it is free the wings will forever remain stunted and the butterfly will never fly.
Science has over the years created antibiotics to fight certain diseases but the adverse affects are that the bacteria evolve and get stronger so that the antibiotics no longer work. The body that has grown dependant on the artificially created means of protection now no longer adapts itself to naturally fight the disease and the mind has been convinced it cannot without artificial means.

The misunderstanding of stress related diseases and the affects of curing the disease but not the cause, is a major factor in the hit or miss technological advancements of medical science. Doctors don't have an answer for every disease because the individual scenario (mental influence) is always a factor and often changes the outcome of prescribed standards.
There is an interesting thread regarding Placebos and the affects that the mind has on curing the body when it is fooled into believing it is getting a healing drug.
A healthy mind is conducive to a healthy body. Someone who is not stressed is less likely to fall ill than someone who is stressed.
What becomes significantly productive then is arranging thoughts in a direction that expands the minds ability to communicate with the body rather than subvert it through outside authorities, which do not understand the nature of reality.
In this case the Buddhist understanding of the nature of reality may be far superior to the programming of passed on human interventions based on theory and guesswork.

QUOTE
So now we are back to my humble opinion. I think if I do a Google search on what a contribution to society is, see what the word means to most people and we come to a general consensus on the meaning of the term, then we will find that statistics will agree with Lucid. Especially if we are searching in my native tongue, English.

I'm still waiting for the statistics...English or otherwise.
Regarding your humble opinion...well... everyone has one don't they, and I'll bet you don't always listen to others if they don't agree with your own.

I think this is the underlying reality of the type pf messages that Lucid has been posting.
If he wants more he needs to fertilize and water what will grow and expand his growth rather than seek to destroy what he believes is hiding under his bed.
Most outgrow the boogeyman by the time they are 7 or 8.

QUOTE
Will this make it truth? No, almost nothing can be said to be truth. Scientifically viable? No, that would be a chore.

Just another opinion, like your own.

Exactly, an opinion of Buddhists. Labeled as Lazy without any reference to first hand knowledge and presented as a less than intelligent or scientific proposal.
From the man who stated:
QUOTE
Science will replace religion

I'm thinking he's not the leading example of his religion, more than likely just a cheerleader.

QUOTE
Why is it wrong to call someone lazy for only offering me intangibles? Why do you believe that universal harmony is a likelihood when mankind has been at war since the dawn of history?

Universal harmony is the underlying reality of all things which includes war, the outpicturing of the struggle of opposing beliefs. They are the hormones that create growth in the wings to our impending freedom from illusions of separation and duality. Man has continued to evolve past the need to fight, and to find resolution in the fact that life is the journey to Self realization.
Just because you haven't discovered it doesn't mean it doesn't exist. It just means you believe the nature of humanity is violent.
But look around you and observe the nature of things. Even when man destroys the things around him nature is stronger, and what he destroys comes back to resurrect itself.
It may take time but this underlying Truth is stronger in the nature of things than the destructive ignorance of humans who fight to the death for their changing opinions.
This is what all religions are based upon, the Truth of what underlies all things, the immortal being that resides in all things and is no thing.

QUOTE
Focus on dissatisfaction and that is the seed that grows.
Doesn't this metaphor seem illogical to you? If I want my garden to look nice, I pull out all of the weeds first.

If you want a Garden you have to plant it. This requires preparation and commitment to water the garden and to take care of it. In the bigger picture the desire for the garden is much more expanding and rewarding than focusing on the probability of weeds and then giving your attention to weeds rather than the Garden.

In life this is demonstrated by the mental focus of what one wants in life rather than what one doesn't want in life. If you have a goal in mind you don't focus on all the things you don't want or don't want to happen, you give your attention to what you want most and the rest of it takes care of itself, you will tend to the garden as is necessary without holding the negative thoughts that cause stress and make you weaker, causing you to get sick, age and die.

Those that focus on what they don't want don't achieve anything because there is no focus on anything but the changing thoughts of negativity. This creates stress in the mind and the body and eventually kills you.
It's like running a hamster wheel.

Good gardeners know how to plant certain types of plants in their gardens that repel pests. Preventing weeds is as much in the knowledge of good gardening or greater understanding of the whole as in promoting good health rather than taking medicine for something you might get but don’t have.
If you treat you mind and body like a garden then to prepare it for life would you take a baby and start weeding out what is wrong with it?

QUOTE
I don't know Richard Gere, but I have seen him on TV, and he looks lazy to me.

Well it is the opinion of some people that those who watch TV are mentally lazy and they usually have much to say about others in defense of their own shortcomings.

I have to say, "making the statement that Richard Gere looks lazy on TV" isn't a statement that impresses me as truth. But it does lead me to the thought of where your put your point of reference and authority.


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Adrian.
post May 26, 2006, 05:58 PM
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The topic still remains as it was. If you look again he mentions significant contributions, implying what is worth valuing, (as in the English language) significant having or likely to have influence or effect : IMPORTANT (according to Webster) a comparative, (reference quote)


Listen I can't even follow all of this hocus pocus. Showing the relatedness of individual words does not change the commonly understood meaning of the phrase.

QUOTE
(generalized statement supporting the comparison), without a value system or common point of reference to make the comparisons, other than self projected vague observations followed by the label of LAZY


Very true, these statements would be downright bold had I not prefaced them with the words 'in my mind' which you have for some reason omitted.

QUOTE
Then it becomes an issue of worth according to personal values. Possibly a short sighted observation as was demonstrated by Lao Tzu in reference to the ignorance of accomplishments and awards attained by the Dali Lama.


What other types of worth are there? Enlighten me. Worth in the eyes of god? Since we're talking about personal values, do you think I consider it amazing that someone who was born famous wrote a few books?

QUOTE
That depends on the long term affects, and the natural course of the universe. Often people with best intentions step in front of and divert what is perceived as detrimental from taking its natural course of evolution in favor of a personal point of view.


Let people die so evolution can progress? Sure.

QUOTE
the struggle stimulates growth hormones to make the butterflies wings grow and expand, and now that it is free the wings will forever remain stunted and the butterfly will never fly.


I am sure there are plenty of people who would have been happy to die of things like infection and smallpox so that we can all get our winged growth hormones.

QUOTE
There is an interesting thread regarding Placebos and the affects that the mind has on curing the body when it is fooled into believing it is getting a healing drug.


Fluff. Yes placebo's are amazing I'm sure, until we're talking about pneumonia.

QUOTE
I'm still waiting for the statistics...English or otherwise.


http://www.adherents.com/adh_influ.html

QUOTE
I'll bet you don't always listen to others if they don't agree with your own.


Nobody's perfect. Right?

QUOTE
In life this is demonstrated by the mental focus of what one wants in life rather than what one doesn't want in life.


Who are you to say what is a superior method of achievement?

QUOTE
But it does lead me to the thought of where your put your point of reference and authority.


Joesus, you write long pages of nonsense. The ad hominem attacks are all that keeps me awake.
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lucid_dream
post May 26, 2006, 07:02 PM
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QUOTE(Adrian. @ May 26, 03:58 PM) *


great link! Thanks.

I couldn't help noticing that Ascensionists don't even rank on the list! If they're all like Joesus, then it's not surprising that they have contributed nothing significant to society but rather play the role of societal gadfly.

Which reminds me, I wouldn't worry too much about Joesus. He somehow believes that the quantity of words in a post is related to the quality and that if he gets the last post he wins the argument, both of which are false. I have learned that he is oblivious to reason and that his method of argumentation/discussion is, well, infantile. You can't reason with an infant, you can only smile.
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Joesus
post May 26, 2006, 08:29 PM
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Holy Shit, I've achieved God status.
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Joesus
post May 26, 2006, 10:23 PM
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Listen I can't even follow all of this hocus pocus. Showing the relatedness of individual words does not change the commonly understood meaning of the phrase.

I think the key here is the projection of what is commonly understood.
Sorry you can't keep up, but I have faith, that in time, you shall rise above the limited scope of your personal reality.

QUOTE
Very true, these statements would be downright bold had I not prefaced them with the words 'in my mind' which you have for some reason omitted.

I think omitting that fact would allow you to see where you are associating the Truth of what you are really saying. "In your mind" and "Commonly understood" by repeating yourself enough times so that you finally hear where you are coming from.

QUOTE
What other types of worth are there? Enlighten me. Worth in the eyes of god? Since we're talking about personal values, do you think I consider it amazing that someone who was born famous wrote a few books?

The point wasn't about the Dali Lama and his accomplishments. It was about associating accomplishments of personal value with the system of measure being created here and making mind created comparisons to support the labeling of All buddhists as being lazy.
Were back to personal opinion rather than common perception.

QUOTE
Let people die so evolution can progress? Sure.

If that is the best you can surmise from what was said, then you aren't ready to comprehend any more than you do now. C'est la vie

QUOTE

I am sure there are plenty of people who would have been happy to die of things like infection and smallpox so that we can all get our winged growth hormones.

Happiness relative to the nature of the universe is in the understanding of it. Death is a beginning not an end.

QUOTE

Fluff. Yes placebo's are amazing I'm sure, until we're talking about pneumonia.

The reference is in the power of the mind. This is more than fluff, it's a reality.

QUOTE

What is this for, and what does this have to do with statistical evidence of Buddhism and its affect on humanity, and the justification of the label of lazy?
Are we still talking about your mind?

By the way Jesus was not the founder of Christianity,
Buddha was not the founder of Buddhism
Confucius was not the founder of Confucianism
and Paul was more of a founder of "the association and study" of Jesus' Teachings.
Proselytizer is such a limited observation. He threw his entire life into his work rather than just talking about someone elses. Unfortunately he tried to twist it to benefit himself but still there is much more to him than the label attached in this reference point of authority you found on the internet.

I did like the disclaimer that follows the list:
This list is compiled only for fun and reference. Certainly no theological or sociological inferences should be drawn from a subjectively chosen list of only 100 people from throughout human history. These individuals clearly transcend statistical sociological analysis. Nevertheless, it is fascinating to consider the varied ways in which the lives and contributions of nearly all of them were profoundly influenced by their religious background and personal beliefs.

QUOTE
Nobody's perfect. Right?
So are you saying you might be off in your observations and personal beliefs?

QUOTE
Who are you to say what is a superior method of achievement?

Well that seems to be the fly in the ointment when your personal opinion isn't supported.

QUOTE

Joesus, you write long pages of nonsense. The ad hominem attacks are all that keeps me awake.

We're back to what is in your mind.
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Neural
post May 27, 2006, 12:32 AM
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QUOTE(Joesus @ May 26, 08:23 PM) *
I have faith, that in time, you shall rise above the limited scope of your personal reality.


Wish I could say the same for you, Joesus.


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lucid_dream
post May 27, 2006, 12:48 AM
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QUOTE(Joesus @ May 26, 08:23 PM) *
What is this for, and what does this have to do with statistical evidence of Buddhism and its affect on humanity, and the justification of the label of lazy?
Are we still talking about your mind?

QUOTE(Joesus @ May 26, 08:23 PM) *
We're back to what is in your mind.


Joesus, can't the old dog learn any new tricks? Your methods of manipulation are pretty transparent and weak. Did they teach you at black Ishaya school to dodge questions and repeatedly tell other people everything is in their mind?

Black Ishayas, what a joke! Are you related to Jehovah Witnesses? You remind me of fortune tellers and other pseudo-science mind-manipulation scam artists. Here's some advice: try to make more productive use of your time and contribute positively to society. Surely you can do that! can't you?

Btw, the point of the link above, which was very relevant to this discussion, was that it showed Buddhists only comprise 2% of significant contributors to society, disclaimer notwithstanding. In my own experience, I would say the figure is closer to 0%, which is why I started this thread to discuss what significant contributions, if any, Buddhists have made to society and if there is something in their belief system that prevents them from making significant contributions to society. In my opinion and experience, the Buddhist belief system encourages laziness and seems the ideal religion for the sloth-minded...

...kind of like yourself!


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Joesus
post May 27, 2006, 02:05 AM
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Beliefs are subject to change, and opinions are subject to beliefs.
I'm confident you won't remain stuck forever.
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Neural
post May 27, 2006, 04:04 AM
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QUOTE(Joesus @ May 27, 12:05 AM) *
I'm confident you won't remain stuck forever.


Wish I could say the same for you, Joesus.
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guest
post May 27, 2006, 08:32 AM
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lucid dream,
Don´t you think that it is wiser to ask oneself whether one is making any significant contribution to society ?
All that statistical evidence about Buddhism is valuable in the sense that it can make us question our own worth and contribution.
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Joesus
post May 27, 2006, 12:13 PM
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These statistics might be relevant if you are looking for a belief to stand by.

The presumed facts presented are a sampling, 100 well known people and the label of their religious affiliation.

2% of the people listed happened to be Buddhists. The Majority were of Catholic belief.

So how about those Catholics Lucid? They seem to be the most productive team to look for.

Ready to join up?
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lucid_dream
post May 29, 2006, 04:08 PM
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QUOTE(guest @ May 27, 06:32 AM) *

lucid dream,
Don´t you think that it is wiser to ask oneself whether one is making any significant contribution to society ?
All that statistical evidence about Buddhism is valuable in the sense that it can make us question our own worth and contribution.


definitely! We should all be asking ourselves what we are contributing to society.


QUOTE(Joesus @ May 27, 10:13 AM) *
So how about those Catholics Lucid? They seem to be the most productive team to look for.

Ready to join up?


it would be interesting to examine whether there is some belief in Catholic christianity that promotes positively contributing to society. I suspect it has to do with the religion's emphasis on producing works. The question is whether we can apply a subset of Catholic christian beliefs to effect a positive response, without necessarily buying into the full baggage of dogmatism and other nonsense that is associated with it.

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Plato
post May 30, 2006, 08:35 AM
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Lao_Tzu
post May 30, 2006, 09:36 AM
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Nice, Plato. Perhaps that will be an end to this prejudiced idiocy parading as debate.
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Guest
post May 30, 2006, 02:01 PM
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lucid dream,
I love Your response -- "Definitely! We should all be asking ourselves what we are contributing to society".
It is a truly honest and mature response.

Lao Tzu,
It´s useful to have such debates -- they make us more aware and turn us to ourselves.

By the way, do You know the story about Confucio and Lao Tzu ?
As


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Adrian.
post May 30, 2006, 10:41 PM
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QUOTE
I think the key here is the projection of what is commonly understood.
Sorry you can't keep up, but I have faith, that in time, you shall rise above the limited scope of your personal reality.


What is wrong with my projection? Stop to consider that my personal reality is a better point of reference than your own. You have said nothing to refute my statement. You just hurled some thinly veiled insult at me, and implied that in time I will come closer to your perfect state of being.

QUOTE
I think omitting that fact would allow you to see where you are associating the Truth of what you are really saying. "In your mind" and "Commonly understood" by repeating yourself enough times so that you finally hear where you are coming from.


You thought it would be ok to change the meaning of my statement to teach me something?

Your second sentence doesn't really make sense. I think it is lacking some key words, if you repeat it to yourself enough times you will come to realize that.

QUOTE
The point wasn't about the Dali Lama and his accomplishments. It was about associating accomplishments of personal value with the system of measure being created here and making mind created comparisons to support the labeling of All buddhists as being lazy. Were back to personal opinion rather than common perception.


I don't know why you are attacking the information I provide on the basis that this is an issue of personal opinion. You speak as if your statements are not opinion but metaphysical fact, handed down to you by the supreme creator.

QUOTE
The reference is in the power of the mind. This is more than fluff, it's a reality.


Fluff! Please consider the possibility you are mortal from time to time, and do benefit from medical science.

QUOTE
What is this for, and what does this have to do with statistical evidence of Buddhism and its affect on humanity, and the justification of the label of lazy?
Are we still talking about your mind?

By the way Jesus was not the founder of Christianity,
Buddha was not the founder of Buddhism
Confucius was not the founder of Confucianism


And the Easter bunny didn't invent Easter. So what? The link was a visual aide to help you 'surmise' the topic of conversation.

QUOTE
I did like the disclaimer that follows the list:


Irrelevant. You just asked me for my hypothetical statistics which I was more than happy to provide.

QUOTE
So are you saying you might be off in your observations and personal beliefs?


Yes, it's called humility you should try it sometime.

QUOTE
Happiness relative to the nature of the universe is in the understanding of it. Death is a beginning not an end.


Lunacy. How can you make such a baseless assertion?

QUOTE
C'est la vie


You have no concept of the meaning of this phrase, because your mind is full of ancient pillowtalk.




QUOTE
Lao: Nice, Plato. Perhaps that will be an end to this prejudiced idiocy parading as debate.


Please refer to my above comment about the Dalai Lama's book.
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Meklo
post Jun 01, 2006, 11:06 AM
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I've noticed that a lot of people aren't actually contributing much more to this debate than arrogance and a pre-formed dislike/opposition to each other.

To answer the original question, I will say this: -

In general I don't think that religious ties have to do with productiveness of a people. Europe in the Dark ages under Christianity achieved very little. Yet, under the same religion, through the renaissance, the industrial age and up to the modern era, Europe has achieved probably more than any other continent.

Pagan Rome was an absolute success, yet, as Christianity became more and more prominent the Empire fell... I know that's a ridiculous line I'm taking, but it's to make a point. I believe that the success and "contribution" a people make, has more to do with what technology they are exposed to, the amount of time they have on their hands (i.e. Do they spend all day meditating), as well as a whole score of other things.

It also really depend (as others have said) what you mean by a contribution to society. I personally think that Buddhist texts, artwork and Architecture are all fantastic things that have been given to the world. Many Japanese are Buddhist, and they have very high standards of living and have a lot of inginuity, and provide a lot of produce to the West.

All in all, I think that Buddhists choose to live the way they do. It is not being lazy, it is searching for a spiritual truth. If you think that's laziness, then fine - I could ask you what you have ever contributed to society...
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maximus242
post Jun 02, 2006, 02:39 PM
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hmm one also has to think about those big corperate executives who spend all day plotting how to get you to hand over your money to them for something that costs the company 2 cents. Buddhists I must say do more good for society than most people, they could be killers or worse lawyers or bankers. When we look at all the people in the world and what they do, buddhists seem to do more by sitting and meditating than most do working all day. Besides what is society but a place where the rich get richer and the poor get poorer, is it really such a good thing to contribute to it anyways?
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