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> On The Spiritual Laziness And Gullibility Of Christians, Islamic Sheep, Buddhists, And Others Who Cannot Think For Themselves
lucid_dream
post Feb 18, 2006, 05:06 PM
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QUOTE(Dan @ Feb 18, 12:47 PM) *
Consciousness emerges from chaos via unexamined assumptions, therefore they have value. However, if one is to completely understand reality, one cannot take up permanent residence in any less-than-fully-examined state.
If unexamined assumptions presuppose consciousness, then how can you propose that consciousness emerges from unexamined assumptions? You have the snake biting its tail.

QUOTE(Joesus @ Feb 16, 01:44 AM) *
The deepest desire of the human is union with God.
The destiny of every human is this end result in the awareness and experience. This does not mean anyone is separate from God it simply means that as long as the awareness and knowledge of life continues in varying degress of understanding the best we can think of is what we create for ourselves in thought feeling and action.
Our thoughts have a ripple effect in the manifest reality of experience.
Joesus, why would God's nature be such that, even though we are one with God, our consciousness can deceive us on this? Doesn't this imply malice on the part of God? Couldn't God have arranged it so that conscious beings are always conscious of being one with God? How could anything but a malicious God be responsible for so much of the illusions in everyday life that afflict billions of people on earth?
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Joesus
post Feb 18, 2006, 05:15 PM
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QUOTE
did somebody call you here? are you sure it wasn't your own inner cry for attention that led you to this nexus of babble? huh.gif

It could be... I see why you have been elevated to the position of God.. wub.gif
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Dan
post Feb 18, 2006, 05:29 PM
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QUOTE(lucid_dream @ Feb 18, 01:58 PM) *

If unexamined assumptions presuppose consciousness, then how can you propose that consciousness emerges from unexamined assumptions? You have the snake biting its tail.

It is not an intrinsic requirement that consciousness form on unexamined assumptions, it is simply a matter of probability and opportunity. The probability of consciousness initiating in an omniscient state is exceedingly less probable than initiating in a 'veiled' state. It could happen, but I wouldn't hold my breath. However, if a veiled form of consciousness manages to congeal out of the chaos, it may then offer selective pressure on its own physical substrate in the direction of its own need. This feedback yields the vector of the ascendency of consciousness over chaos that is dominated at early stages by chance but at later stages by design. This increasingly design-controlled process would culminate in Shawn's "singularity". At the core of this process is the bare sense of need, not any 'assumption'.
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lucid_dream
post Feb 18, 2006, 05:35 PM
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interesting
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Joesus
post Feb 18, 2006, 05:38 PM
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QUOTE
Joesus, why would God's nature be such that, even though we are one with God, our consciousness can deceive us on this? Doesn't this imply malice on the part of God? Couldn't God have arranged it so that conscious beings are always conscious of being one with God? How could anything but a malicious God be responsible for so much of the illusions in everyday life that afflict billions of people on earth?


Point of reference.
God/Consciousness is not separate from creation as humans perceive themselves to be in the identity of being something other than God/Consciousness.

If you build a house and burn it down does the house feel some resentment for having been created and then destroyed?
Is there consciousness or a conscious connection between creator and created. If yes then does that apply to objects such as Trees, rocks etc. Does our concious thought have any effect on inanimate objects, time and space? Where does our consciousness end? If we die does our consciousness die?

Lets say that if Consciousness is consciousness and it is unaffected by Time and space but is very much aware of it. Then if you as a human no longer exist who or what are you? Do you continue to hang onto your memories of your life of presumed separation and suffering?

Let's say you have a choice to place your awareness in a point of reference that is not situated in the sparation of consciousness and manifest reality. There you do not identify with being afflicted by any outside source but are the one creating the scenario. Now the house is the body and you may do with it as you will without any predisposed attachment to mortality. Then the body is like a car or a set of clothes. They are useful in playing a role in achieving experience and creating appearances only.

Have you ever gone into a movie theater and watched a movie where you became absorbed in it temporarily feeling a wide range of emotions? Fear, excitement, passion etc. Ever cried in a movie?
Would you say there was some predisposed intent to make you suffer by influencing you into losing control of your emotional rationale. Would you say a film has that power?

We are what we want to be within the experience of what we are. Are you the body if the mind is aware of itself extended beyond the body in dreams and witnessing itself in action?

Point of reference...
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lucid_dream
post Feb 18, 2006, 05:48 PM
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QUOTE(Joesus @ Feb 18, 02:38 PM) *

QUOTE
Joesus, why would God's nature be such that, even though we are one with God, our consciousness can deceive us on this? Doesn't this imply malice on the part of God? Couldn't God have arranged it so that conscious beings are always conscious of being one with God? How could anything but a malicious God be responsible for so much of the illusions in everyday life that afflict billions of people on earth?


Point of reference.
God/Consciousness is not separate from creation as humans perceive themselves to be in the identity of being something other than God/Consciousness.

So I guess my question becomes, why is God's nature so that billions of humans perceive themselves as something other than God? Does that not imply a malicious God? Why isn't God's nature such that we are all "born" with the ideal point of reference and are always fully conscious of our union with God? Is this beyond God's powers? Is God perhaps, less than ideal, less than perfect? Is God impotent or otherwise defective? Or is God malicious?
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Joesus
post Feb 18, 2006, 07:08 PM
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QUOTE

So I guess my question becomes, why is God's nature so that billions of humans perceive themselves as something other than God? Does that not imply a malicious God? Why isn't God's nature such that we are all "born" with the ideal point of reference and are always fully conscious of our union with God? Is this beyond God's powers? Is God perhaps, less than ideal, less than perfect? Is God impotent or otherwise defective? Or is God malicious?


Point of reference.

There is only one.

Those billions of people perceived to be in separation are only suffering because you believe they are real and that they are suffering.

Each cell in your body uses neuropeptides and reciever sites to communicate with each other, if one senses something it is transmitted within the body to all of the other cells, but there is just one body.

Those billions of people are part of a much larger body and a much greater consciousness. You choose to identify with the smaller or larger.

You have decided that you suffer, yet consider this. In the animal world does a cat wish it were something else, or that it might be more or less successful if it was in a different environment or does it be just a cat?

You might be taking for granted that others share your resentment of a God that you were programmed with in your childhood, that didn't save you from the experiences of living a crappy life that didn't meet your expectations.
You could be attracting like minded people that meet the needs of your beliefs to project your reality experience. (With an occasional distraction created by the heart to point you to something greater) wink.gif

I find that in any case no matter what the belief, what you put your attention on grows. Since you have decided that God has dissappointed you, you are not willing to give up your position until God gives you something greater than your own present experience.

God made man in his own image. Since the image is always changing you're just clinging to one, and are finding it painful to give it up. Since God created Man in his own image then its not up to a God outside of you to change anything, its up to the God within you to make it change. You just may be taking the long way around the barn in your present course of action. (not that it matters since God has all the time in the world...)
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lucid_dream
post Feb 18, 2006, 07:12 PM
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so I guess my question becomes, why is it in God's nature to permit people to perceive illusions? Why does a sense of separateness sometimes accompany the state of being conscious? Why isn't God's nature so that conscious beings are invariably conscious of their oneness with God? Sounds pretty malicious on God's part to me.

Note that I never said that God disappointed me, nor should you take to reading that into my words. I am just asking questions, out of curiousity, and because I want to know other people's answers, particularly yours since you seem to believe that everything is perfect as is.
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Dan
post Feb 18, 2006, 07:54 PM
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QUOTE(Joesus @ Feb 18, 04:08 PM) *

Those billions of people perceived to be in separation are only suffering because you believe they are real and that they are suffering.

So my beliefs are the cause of the state of my external environment? i.e., if I believe that there is no Joesus, then the solipsistic 'yoga' that is frequently posted under the name 'Joesus' will also cease? dry.gif
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Joesus
post Feb 18, 2006, 08:24 PM
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QUOTE

so I guess my question becomes, why is it in God's nature to permit people to perceive illusions? Why does a sense of separateness sometimes accompany the state of being conscious? Why isn't God's nature so that conscious beings are invariably conscious of their oneness with God? Sounds pretty malicious on God's part to me.

It sounds malicious to you because that is the way you choose to see it. What better way to experience the power of God in you than to have the power to see it any way you wish to see it?
QUOTE

Note that I never said that God disappointed me, nor should you take to reading that into my words. I am just asking questions, out of curiousity, and because I want to know other people's answers, particularly yours since you seem to believe that everything is perfect as is.



No you didn't say God personally dissapointed you, but in your posts you have a real thing about God not living up to anyones expectations, pointing to the discrepancies you see and experience in the religious community, and the relationship to the written word.
You also made mention of your own experience in which you made a point of expressing how dissapointing that was..
I would say, that you being dissapointed in everyone else who believes in God as an Ideal, and in your determination that they are sheep without any sensibility, and through your own logic, assume God is responsible (if God exists) to set the record straight.

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lucid_dream
post Feb 18, 2006, 08:40 PM
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QUOTE(Joesus @ Feb 18, 05:24 PM) *
It sounds malicious to you because that is the way you choose to see it.
Then how do you see it? What are your answers to my questions above, or do you not even believe they're valid questions? If you don't believe they're valid questions, then what sort of God permits invalid questions to be asked? Is this not malicious?

QUOTE(Joesus @ Feb 18, 05:24 PM) *
No you didn't say God personally dissapointed you, but in your posts you have a real thing about God not living up to anyones expectations... You also made mention of your own experience in which you made a point of expressing how dissapointing that was.
There is a difference between disappointment and dissatisfaction. I am dissatisfied with people's childish notions of God and of their need to believe in foolishness. I am dissatisfied with my own limitations, and of human limitations in general. I am not necessarily disappointed. Please do not try to change this discussion into something it's not. I have legitimate dissatisfactions and questions, and you are trying to belittle it by sidestepping my questions and saying it's all in my head and that there is a problem with the way I am experiencing things. That's not very helpful, or honest for that matter.

I could use your logic and argue that the fact that you are satisfied with everything suggests to me that there is something seriously wrong with you and the way you are experiencing things. If you are satisfied with everything, then where is the motivation for spiritual and intellectual growth, and for changing the world. Being satisfied with everything is a prescription for laziness. Joesus, are you a sloth?
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Joesus
post Feb 18, 2006, 08:51 PM
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QUOTE

So my beliefs are the cause of the state of my external environment? i.e., if I believe that there is no Joesus, then the solipsistic 'yoga' that is frequently posted under the name 'Joesus' will also cease?

No, you, with your beliefs in what you experience as real, communicating with others who also believe their experiences are real share a common belief that everything that is experienced is real according to the real interpretation of the person experiencing it.

Take a kids toy away and the kid screams thinking it is losing something. The average adult thinks he/she'll get over it. Take away a country boys prize 4 wheel drive and he may not see it the same way as he would with his kid who lost his toy 4 wheeler.
People place value on their attachments and this includes toys, relationships, feelings etc.

One person says I lost my girlfriend and I'm suffering. Someone loses their arms and legs and can't feed him/herself, then losing a girlfriend seems like an afterthought not worth of any attention.
Suffering is a state of mind. The mind and body are interconnected but the body does not rule the mind.
As long a like minded people like to wallow in their misery they will agree they are suffering. No one likes to suffer alone biggrin.gif

As for me.... you brought me here Dan, the thought of getting rid of me isn't as strong as your desire to have me in your universe.
It's like masturbation, your'e afraid to admit you like it or do it, but you still do it anyway. It's one of those things you wish you could openly embrace. wink.gif
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Joesus
post Feb 18, 2006, 09:07 PM
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QUOTE
Then how do you see it? What are your answers to my questions above, or do you not even believe they're valid questions? If you don't believe they're valid questions, then what sort of God permits invalid questions to be asked? Is this not malicious?

What is so malicious about being able to ask questions? Perhaps you are getting the answers to your questions but facing in the wrong direction. Eveyone is so fixated on instant gratification. True appreciation of life is in the accumulation of all the gifts rather than jumping like a monkey from one tree to another seeking the ideal banana throwing away each piece of the puzzle because they don't have the patience to assemble the pieces

QUOTE
There is a difference between disappointment and dissatisfaction. I am dissatisfied with people's childish notions of God and of their need to believe in foolishness. I am dissatisfied with my own limitations, and of human limitations in general. I am not necessarily disappointed. Please do not try to change this discussion into something it's not. I have legitimate dissatisfactions and questions, and you are trying to belittle it by sidestepping my questions and saying it's all in my head and that there is a problem with the way I am experiencing things. That's not very helpful, or honest for that matter.

I could use your logic and argue that the fact that you are satisfied with everything suggests to me that there is something seriously wrong with you and the way you are experiencing things. If you are satisfied with everything, then where is the motivation for spiritual and intellectual growth, and for changing the world. Being satisfied with everything is a prescription for laziness. Joesus, are you a sloth?

Not a sloth, lazy at times but what inspires me is the expansion I get from embracing each moment and experiencing each moment with open arms rather than with prejudice by dragging the past into the present moment. It requires a conscious choice, rather than to let the mind operate out of habit.
Being dissatisfied can be a good motivator, but you have to be willing to put down the old for the new rather than dragging the past with you and comparing the new with the old. As long as your arms are full carrying the old crap around you can't really embrace much of anything new.
There is always more than one dimensional reality to our experiences and we can expand our awareness to experience even the worst moment in a new way if we aren't experiencing from judgment. One mans junk pile is another mans treasure.
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Dan
post Feb 18, 2006, 09:21 PM
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QUOTE(Joesus @ Feb 18, 05:51 PM) *

blah blah blah ... masturbation, ...blah blah...

so I can't believe you away sad.gif but I can cause suffering in others by believing them to be suffering? wacko.gif

This post has been edited by Dan: Feb 18, 2006, 09:22 PM
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Joesus
post Feb 19, 2006, 12:24 AM
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QUOTE

blah blah blah ... masturbation, ...blah blah...

so I can't believe you away sad.gif but I can cause suffering in others by believing them to be suffering?

I don't think that is what I said but if you want to mentally masturbate, I'll sit back and wait for you to finish.. rolleyes.gif
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Dan
post Feb 19, 2006, 02:31 AM
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QUOTE(Joesus @ Feb 18, 09:24 PM) *

I don't think...but...to mentally masturbate...

that's too bad. Thinking can be quite useful when applied properly. cool.gif
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Joesus
post Feb 19, 2006, 02:56 AM
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QUOTE

Thinking can be quite useful when applied properly.

Comprehension is useful too. But you have to be paying attention blink.gif
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Trip like I do
post Feb 19, 2006, 03:00 AM
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....differentiating signal from background noise!
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Shawn
post Feb 19, 2006, 03:02 AM
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nice to see you back, Dan and Joesus. So what's new with both of you?
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Dan
post Feb 19, 2006, 03:03 AM
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mostly the same except it looks like I'll be gettin' hitched in June
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Dan
post Feb 19, 2006, 03:20 AM
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There were two exceedingly important factors involved in my decision to resurface. (well, maybe three). First, I noticed that I am being surpassed in total number of posts by certain unnamed board villains. Second, Joesus dared to speak. Third, I was bored. I don't know how long I'll be interested this time around, but maybe I'll redevelop an addiction and spam the board for a while. rolleyes.gif

trip
everytime I look at your picture, the word 'whoa' comes to mind. It's like the Oracle hasn't yet convinced you that you are the One. cool.gif
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Shawn
post Feb 19, 2006, 03:29 AM
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congratulations, Dan, and good luck. I hope you won't debate like this with your wife. I wasn't expecting you to stick around, but it was nice to see you drop in again.
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Dan
post Feb 19, 2006, 04:24 AM
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funny thing
My fiance's father is a gita-preaching swami based in Tiruvannamalai, India. He was high in the Maharishi organization in the early 90's.
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Joesus
post Feb 19, 2006, 12:12 PM
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QUOTE(Dan @ Feb 19, 09:24 AM) *

funny thing
My fiance's father is a gita-preaching swami based in Tiruvannamalai, India. He was high in the Maharishi organization in the early 90's.

Now that's funny...

Will you be celebrating Mahasivaratri with the family this coming weekend? smile.gif

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Dan
post Feb 19, 2006, 02:48 PM
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QUOTE(Joesus @ Feb 19, 09:12 AM) *

Will you be celebrating Mahasivaratri with the family this coming weekend? smile.gif

Since the family (except for the girl) is in India, I can probably avoid it. The yoga taught by her father supposedly doesn't focus too much on deities and rituals, although he does have some priests at his ashram who do pujas for all events like this since Arunachala is a hotbead of Siva worship.
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Rick
post Feb 21, 2006, 03:09 PM
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QUOTE(Dan @ Feb 18, 03:18 AM) *
Holy ganesh droppings, Joesus is back? (more importantly, I'm back?!?) Are you looking for new converts

Welcome back, Dan. PhD in hand, I assume? Congrats on that and on your engagement, too.
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Lindsay
post Feb 21, 2006, 06:10 PM
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QUOTE(Rick @ Feb 21, 12:09 PM) *

QUOTE(Dan @ Feb 18, 03:18 AM) *
Holy ganesh droppings, Joesus is back? (more importantly, I'm back?!?) Are you looking for new converts

Welcome back, Dan. PhD in hand, I assume? Congrats on that and on your engagement, too.
The last time I looked: PhD, stands for post hole digger; or, piled higher and deeper. It can also mean: knowing more and more about less and less, until we know everything about...nothing. laugh.gif

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Rick
post Feb 21, 2006, 06:24 PM
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Hey, I resemble that!
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Lindsay
post Feb 22, 2006, 12:26 AM
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Rick, if it truly offends, I can dissemble it. smile.gif
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post Feb 27, 2006, 05:49 PM
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Obviously no offense was taken. Therefore, I conclude: All is well!
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