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> On The Spiritual Laziness And Gullibility Of Christians, Islamic Sheep, Buddhists, And Others Who Cannot Think For Themselves
Joesus
post Feb 15, 2006, 10:25 PM
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QUOTE(lucid_dream @ Feb 16, 03:14 AM) *

QUOTE(Joesus @ Feb 14, 08:49 AM) *
I'm assuming nothing. I'm simply asking questions you seem to have not resolved in your own mind because you have no clear answers to them. So in light of this I'll agree that you are making general statements based on insufficient knowledge and experience.

In other words, Joesus, you're making assumptions because what you said above is equivalent to the following:

QUOTE
I'm assuming nothing. I'm simply asking questions that I am assuming you have not resolved in your own mind because I'm assuming you have no clear answers to them. So in light of these assumptions of mine, I'll further assume that you are making general statements based on insufficient knowledge and experience.

That's a lot of assumptions for someone who's claiming they're assuming nothing, wouldn't you say? Is it possible for you to approach this topic with an open mind?

No those assumptions are yours. I am assuming nothing.

To put it into your own words I've made some general statements which are allowable by your standards as long as I'm not projecting. ohmy.gif

QUOTE
The problem here is the myriad assumptions and doctrines that people thoughtlessly maintain. So what solution are you proposing?


Give them something to replace what they have in experience and belief that is greater than what they have. Unfortunately you can't control ones choices so I guess it boils down to finding peace within yourself rather than trying to control or manipulate the outside to protect yourself from having feelings and judgments about others.

This post has been edited by Joesus: Feb 15, 2006, 10:29 PM
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lucid_dream
post Feb 15, 2006, 10:39 PM
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QUOTE(Guest @ Feb 15, 04:19 PM) *
Hello lucid_dream,

I agree with your general idea about religions. But religion is only one form of self-deception. If some one did not subscibe to any religion but had some other form of self_deception, that would also be harmful. I suggest that you focus on self_deception as the most basic evil. Have you thought about this idea? This is a friendly suggestion and not a criticism.


Yes, all forms of deception should be confronted. Religion is just one of the worst sources of deception, which is why I focused on it instead of self-deception in general. In retrospect, it would have been better to have focused on self-deception, with religious deception as a subtopic. Other subtopics could include various other common fantasies and delusions people enact in their minds, in addition to the common assumptions they maintain, and oftentimes are unaware that they're even assumptions unless they're explicitly called out.

QUOTE(Joesus @ Feb 15, 07:25 PM) *
so I guess it boils down to finding peace within yourself rather than trying to control or manipulate the outside to protect yourself from having feelings and judgments about others.


That's such a cop-out.


QUOTE(Joesus @ Feb 15, 07:25 PM) *
No those assumptions are yours. I am assuming nothing.

Your responses suggest to me that you are coming into this with assumptions, in spite of your denials to that effect. You are probably assuming that, because I am not content with all as is, I must be in a suboptimal or non-illumined state of mind, but I would say this does not logically follow. Whether the highest and most illumined state of mind implies contentedness is beside the point and does not imply that the state of being content with things as they are implies the converse. In other words, just because you are content with everything as it is (or at least that's what you probably want us to believe) does not imply that that's in any way praiseworthy or desirable.

I'm sure that with a lobotomy, I could be passive and content with everything and not desire any change, but is that how I want to live? Never.
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Joesus
post Feb 16, 2006, 12:23 AM
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QUOTE
That's such a cop-out.


So your saying that you have peace of mind and that this issue is not a personal issue driven by your own feelings but one that is driven by a higher source moving you toward a direction inspired by the source of all humanities highest interests?

QUOTE
Your responses suggest to me that you are coming into this with assumptions, in spite of your denials to that effect. You are probably assuming that, because I am not content with all as is, I must be in a suboptimal or non-illumined state of mind, but I would say this does not logically follow. Whether the highest and most illumined state of mind implies contentedness is beside the point and does not imply that the state of being content with things as they are implies the converse. In other words, just because you are content with everything as it is (or at least that's what you probably want us to believe) does not imply that that's in any way praiseworthy or desirable.


Probably assuming?
Your not very sure of your self.
Your lack of response to my questions suggests to me that you don't know the answers to my questions, therefore through the experience I have of you in avoiding the questions and making general statements based on personal experience I use the same general means of making statements to the effect of my experience of you. Convince me otherwise.

I did not make the statment that finding peace within yourself means that you do nothing, that would be a projection of a stereotype you have created similar to the old age stereotyping you demonstrated earlier. So far you have failed to inspire me to think anything other than that you hold a lot of judgment about the world and have little experience of it. If you wish to address an issue you will have to do better than just complain about a problem stating your own points of view and experience. If you want to change the world you had better know how it is created so that you can by understanding it, and your relationship to it, to do something to get different results.
So far you've convinced me you have an issue, but it seems that you have the issue and I don't, so to me it's a personal problem not a problem everyone shares with you.

Do you have an children?
If so do you let your kids work out their playground problems or do you get involved with every thing they do and feel when learning about their relationship with the world? Do you know the difference between guidance and programming?

QUOTE
I'm sure that with a lobotomy, I could be passive and content with everything and not desire any change, but is that how I want to live? Never.


You aren't taking this in a very enlightened direction. This is what I mean by projecting.
If you want to be the Teacher you will have to master what you intend to teach. Otherwise you will only approach each subject from the level of your own misunderstanding.
If you want to use all of your mental and physical faculties you won't be very affective if a good portion of your mind is whirling about in emotional stress and judgment. It takes a great degree of impartial and emotional detachment to be able to hear what is going on inside your own heart, let alone that of others.
People, like you, only want stability, love and reassurance that they won't be denied happiness. No one wants to be happy sometimes. God offers a lot of people hope that they can escape from temporary fixes and random glimpses of happiness when the world seems so divided and inconsistent. Can you offer them a better promise than heaven and eternal peace? If you want to tell them there is no such thing when they believe otherwise or want to believe otherwise then how are you going to convince them?
If you couldn't or can't can you find peace within yourself to know that there are things that you cannot change?

Ever heard of the serenity prayer?


God grant me the serenity
to accept the things I cannot change;
courage to change the things I can;
and wisdom to know the difference.

Living one day at a time;
Enjoying one moment at a time;
Accepting hardships as the pathway to peace;
Taking, as He did, this sinful world
as it is, not as I would have it;
Trusting that He will make all things right
if I surrender to His Will;
That I may be reasonably happy in this life
and supremely happy with Him
Forever in the next.
Amen.

--Reinhold Niebuhr



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Lindsay
post Feb 16, 2006, 01:04 AM
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For those who don't know of Reinhold Niebuhr, check out
http://www.leaderu.com/isot/docs/niehbr3.html

Nieburhr was a minister who later became a professor at Union Theological Seminary, NY. He was the author of several influential books which were part of my studies in the 1950's. He was a great social democrat--perhaps a little too liberal and left wing for Republicans, even some Democrats. However, his ideas did contribute to civil-liberties causes.

BTW, I like to think of myself as neither left wing, nor right wing. I take a feathers approach to the political economy. Feathers cover the whole bird. Without them, especially the tail feathers, the strongest wings would be out of balance and useless. Perhaps this is why the world is in the mess it is in. The struggle between the left and the right is not good for the goose.

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lucid_dream
post Feb 16, 2006, 01:09 AM
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Joesus, commonplace advice and trite remarks, peppered through with an occasional veiled attack or low opinion estimate, are no substitute for thoughtful reflection and useful exchanges. Have you even read what I've posted in this thread, or are you just attacking an army of straw men. Talk about having issues.

You are what your deep, driving desire is.
As your desire is, so is your will. As your will is,
so is your deed. As your deed is, so is your destiny.



Know where that's from (it's easy, I'm sure you'll find the answer online) and what it means?

Or can you tell me where this one came from and what you believe it means?

The light of self-knowledge alone illumines all experiences... Within the atomic space of consciousness there exists all the experiences...From that consciousness all experiences expand...In the twinkling of an eye this infinite consciousness experiences an epoch within itself.


Or pray tell me what this means and whence it is derived:

Galvanism, so long as the pile lasts, is also an aimlessly and ceaselessly repeated act of self-discord and reconciliation. The existence of the plant is just such a restless, never satisfied striving, a ceaseless activity through higher and higher forms, till the final point, the seed, becomes a new starting point; and this is repeated ad infinitum; nowhere is there a goal, nowhere a final satisfaction, nowhere a point of rest.
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Lindsay
post Feb 16, 2006, 01:46 AM
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QUOTE
BTW, I like to think of myself as neither left wing, nor right wing. I take a feathers approach to the political economy. Feathers cover the whole bird. Without them, especially the tail feathers, the strongest wings would be out of balance and useless. Perhaps this is why the world is in the mess it is in. The struggle between the left and the right is not good for the goose.
In addition to the above I did not want to leave the impression that RN was far left. He was, but only in the early part of his ministry. In his later days, he did come back to balance. To really sample his writings, check out:
http://www.religion-online.org/listbycategory.asp?Cat=37

Joesus, and LD. It would be interesting, for me, to know a little bit about your theological and/or philosophical backbround and your attitude towards what others believe. Perhaps this can help us in promoting the art of dialogue/conversation.

In what sense are we all, including me, preaching to or teaching others? How can we share concepts and ideas in the spirit of dialogue. BTW, I am not adverse to learning from others, especially if they have access to knowledge of which I am unaware.

BTW, it is almost 2:00 AM in the Toronto area. The weather here is: No snow, and just above freezing--0 Celsius. I am off to bed.

This post has been edited by Lindsay: Feb 16, 2006, 01:40 AM
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lucid_dream
post Feb 16, 2006, 02:18 AM
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QUOTE(Lindsay @ Feb 15, 10:46 PM) *
Joesus, and LD. It would be interesting, for me, to know a little bit about your theological and/or philosophical backbround and your attitude towards what others believe.


I can't answer this without offending people. To put it nicely, I am open-minded but critical. I was brought up in a catholic environment for a few years in youth, and even believed in your garden-variety god that you say grace to at dinner, but as soon as I began reading and assimilating other's thoughts, I knew Christianity and other religions were a crock. There is no excuse for them. You can say that they're opium for the masses, but that's not a good reason to keep them around or to be sympathetic. Naturally, I differentiate between the truly stupid religious people who take the bible or other holy works literally, and the thoughtful sheep, who consider themselves christians or whatever, but are more intelligent yet not strong enough of mind to break free from their religous bonds. To the former, no sympathy, only disdain. To the latter, pity and respect if it's deserved. True religion is to be found in direct experience, not doctrine. Thus the parrots of the bible will get my foot in their mouth. I have had unfathomable experiences, and now I am moving towards the next stage if my will permits it, before old age overtakes me. My time is short; hence my lack of patience.

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Joesus
post Feb 16, 2006, 04:44 AM
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QUOTE

Joesus, commonplace advice and trite remarks, peppered through with an occasional veiled attack or low opinion estimate, are no substitute for thoughtful reflection and useful exchanges. Have you even read what I've posted in this thread, or are you just attacking an army of straw men. Talk about having issues.


I think in your last post you said something like:
QUOTE
I can't answer this without offending people.

I'm not responsible for your interpretations of what I say as you are not responsible for the response you get from speaking your own mind. We do not crawl inside the minds to trigger the switches of response and feeling that one feels by our intentions when we speak. We may try to do so at times but the reality is that we have free will to choose how we follow thoughts and ideas and how we wish to live our lives.
You evidently see me the way you wish to no matter what I might feel or intend to portray in my messages. C'est la Vie
We feel threatened by what we see outside of ourselves when it lives inside of us making us believe we are victims to the outside with no control over our own choices to discrimate between truth and illusion. This mirror is often ignored because it isn't recognized.
QUOTE


You are what your deep, driving desire is.
As your desire is, so is your will. As your will is,
so is your deed. As your deed is, so is your destiny.

The deepest desire of the human is union with God.
The destiny of every human is this end result in the awareness and experience. This does not mean anyone is separate from God it simply means that as long as the awareness and knowledge of life continues in varying degress of understanding the best we can think of is what we create for ourselves in thought feeling and action.
Our thoughts have a ripple effect in the manifest reality of experience.


QUOTE

Know where that's from (it's easy, I'm sure you'll find the answer online) and what it means?


A verse from a translation of the Upanishads. Commentaries always vary from one translation to another but I gave you mine rather than the one from Eknath Easwaran.
QUOTE


Or can you tell me where this one came from and what you believe it means?

The light of self-knowledge alone illumines all experiences... Within the atomic space of consciousness there exists all the experiences...From that consciousness all experiences expand...In the twinkling of an eye this infinite consciousness experiences an epoch within itself.


Reminds me of Vasishta's Yoga

When one knows the Self one knows everyone and everything. All things are united in the One consciousness so it is in that which all things are found and known.
QUOTE

Or pray tell me what this means and whence it is derived:

Galvanism, so long as the pile lasts, is also an aimlessly and ceaselessly repeated act of self-discord and reconciliation. The existence of the plant is just such a restless, never satisfied striving, a ceaseless activity through higher and higher forms, till the final point, the seed, becomes a new starting point; and this is repeated ad infinitum; nowhere is there a goal, nowhere a final satisfaction, nowhere a point of rest.

This last one I have no idea where it comes from and I wouldn't know what it means to you or what you want me say about it to help you try and figure out where I am coming from. But if you wish to tell me what it means to you I can certainly comment on it if you wish.

Lindsay. It isn't really important where I came from. I don't think its relevent unless you wish to project where you think I am going by thinking you know where I am coming from.
I find no reason to let anyones beliefs interfere with my own nor do I think my beliefs would interfere with anyone elses. The only time beleifs become a threat is when somebody feels the need to find a place of measure to compare beliefs to that system of measure and then judge them from that point of measure.

In your theological studies have you ever studied the middle way Buddha describes? JJ Dewey had a great way of describing it in terms that are relevent to scripture.

Lev 19:15 Ye shall do no unrighteousness in judgment: thou shalt not respect the person of the poor, nor honor the person of the mighty: but in righteousness shalt thou judge thy neighbor.

Deut 1:17 Ye shall not respect persons in judgment; but ye shall hear the small as well as the great; ye shall not be afraid of the face of man; for the judgment is God's: and the cause that is too hard for you, bring it unto me, and I will hear it.

Jn 5:30 I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.


This kiind of follows along the lines of what quote from the Upanishads is saying about the Self and the light of the Self.
When one unites with God or Spirit and leaves the identities of the Ego behind the The inner light of the Self speaks without distortion of beliefs that are constantly changing.
When Jesus said "I and my Father are one" he spoke of the living presence within the Body that was immortal, omniscent and invited by preparing the body and mind for its arrival through Prayer/meditation/purification. In doing so and having set aside all illusions of lesser beliefs of the ego presence all judgment is made through the heart or the living connection between spirit and flesh or the unmanifest and the manifest.
All great masters know through their own experience and the Teaching they followed that there is no judgment in God or spirit other than to meet each moment right on cue with what is needed by the wandering soul seeking experience to give them more insight to the source from which it came and freedom from any self imposed boundaries.
There are no limits to the human condition other than those that are self imposed.
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Lindsay
post Feb 16, 2006, 11:11 AM
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It is 11:00 AM in Toronto. Snow started, early this AM. It stopped after it dropped about 2 inches of wet snow. Freezing rain in the area for the next while. Then getting colder. Typical January in Toronto. Fortunately, the snow belts are north and south (Buffalo, NY), of us.

Shortly, I will be off to a regular luncheon discussion group, which I moderate (I am not the guru), sponsored by the Family Life Foundation, which has been going on for over 30 years.

Topics are centered around what is happening in the media and we compare it to stories and teachings in the Bible, or other sacred literature. We have open-minded believers, agnostics and atheists. Needless to say the discussion if often animated. But always in good taste.

BTW, keep up the dialoguing/conversing. We can always agree to disagree agreeably, I trust and hope. I will read your stuff more carefully and respond in more detail, later.

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guest
post Feb 16, 2006, 12:00 PM
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QUOTE
"So what would you identify as the source of this issue?"



that which percieves it

to be

as an

issue
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Guest
post Feb 16, 2006, 02:17 PM
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QUOTE(guest @ Feb 16, 09:00 AM) *

QUOTE
"So what would you identify as the source of this issue?"



that which percieves it

to be

as an

issue

And what is it, that percieves the issue as an issue worthy of attention, and what is that going to do about the issue?
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guest
post Feb 16, 2006, 03:14 PM
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QUOTE
And what is it, that perceives the issue as an issue worthy of attention


That which perceives

QUOTE
and what is that going to do about the issue?


What issue?

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Lindsay
post Feb 16, 2006, 03:57 PM
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LD, tell me see if I understand your message, or not. I have arranged what you wrote so that it makes sense to me. Change it where you feel it needs to be fixed.
QUOTE(lucid_dream @ Feb 15, 11:18 PM) *
I was brought up in a typically Catholic home and community. When I was a child, I went to mass with the family, said grace at meals, etc. However, things were oh so narrow and dull. I was not overly or positively impressed.

As soon as I got old enough, with the help of the media, I began to pay attention to what was going on in the world around me. I began to read, to listen to the opinions of others and to think for myself. I made up my mind that all religions, including Christianity, had nothing that made sense to me.

If being critical of others and saying this offends people, so be it.

However, I am open-minded.

Also, I am offended by truly stupid religious people, the kind who take the Bible, or other holy books, literally, .....I have no sympathy for such people, only disdain.

However, I feel pity for those Christians, Muslims, Jews, whatever, who are good and intelligent people but who are, obviously, not intelligent or strong enough to break free from their religous bonds. In a way, I pity them.

For me, true religion is to be found in direct experience, not in doctrines.


LD, I have no idea what you mean by: "I have had unfathomable (?) experiences, and now I am moving towards the next stage if my will permits it, before old age overtakes me. My time is short; hence my lack of patience."

What are you impatient about? What is it you want to get done? Do you dread old age?

What, for you, constitutes a "true religion"? Is there no place for communities of believers? Or should we all be rugged individuals?

This post has been edited by Lindsay: Feb 16, 2006, 05:40 PM
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Rick
post Feb 16, 2006, 04:18 PM
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QUOTE(Guest @ Feb 15, 04:19 PM) *

I agree with your general idea about religions. But religion is only one form of self-deception. If some one did not subscribe to any religion but had some other form of self-deception, that would also be harmful. I suggest that you focus on self-deception as the most basic evil. Have you thought about this idea? This is a friendly suggestion and not a criticism.

Self-deception is one thing, but religions propagate themselves by deceiving others. While self-deception is key to the well-meaning practice of proselytizing, the hoodwinking of the innocent (especially children) is the greater evil.
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ontologicalrealist
post Feb 16, 2006, 07:19 PM
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[/quote]

guest,

what is your understanding of self-deception and harmfulness...what is evil?
[/quote]

Hi,

What is self-deception? I would give one example. You have heard being said about someone that he is in denial. Being in denial is one form of self-deception.

I am willing to expand on this after I hear some responce.

ontologicalrealist
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Lindsay
post Feb 17, 2006, 12:00 AM
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QUOTE(ontologicalrealist @ Feb 16, 04:19 PM) *

....What is self-deception? I would give one example. You have heard being said about someone that he is in denial. Being in denial is one form of self-deception.
What on earth is an ontological-realist?

BTW, when Rick writes "...religions propagate themselves by deceiving others", I wonder if he will deny it if I say:

Rick, because this is not the first time you have made a similar statement, you seem to be addicted to making the sweeping generalization that all religions are evil.

Furthermore, given that human beings, by nature, seem to be hard-wired to be religious--in one way or another--anyone who thinks that a sizeable number will abandon the religious component of their nature anytime soon has got to be living in denial of reality.

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Joesus
post Feb 17, 2006, 12:08 AM
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QUOTE


What issue?



Exactly.. cool.gif
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OnlyNow
post Feb 17, 2006, 12:18 AM
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Lucid Dream, I think I get where you're coming from about the religion thing.

I just revisited the first few paragraphs of the bible and noted that right off the bat things don't add up. God created the light of day and the darkness of night (day 1) prior to the creation of the sun (day 4). It's obvious that this passage did not emanate from a divine intelligence but rather from a human writer who didn't get that virtually every bit of our world's daylight comes from the sun. I could go on and on from there, but why bother? If even one part of the bible is illogical/impossible/wrong, then how can anyone rely on this book as the true word of God? I have a sneaking suspicion that every world religion can be proven fallible in a similar fashion.

What are we left wiith?

Going back to square one. Let's forget everything--and I mean everything--that any religion has tried to teach us about "God."

I'd be a lot more comfortable as an atheist if nothing existed at all. No God, no consciousness, no me, no you, no universe, no space, no thing. But the fact of the matter, it's evident that something does exist. Either this something arose out of nothing, or this something ALWAYS existed. If it arose out of nothing, then "something" must have caused THAT, and you're still left with...something. And you know, this something will always be around, won't it? Are there any other alternatives? It all sounds pretty magical to me, impossible to comprehend through religion, eastern thought, western science or anything else we've come up with. I wonder if our limited brains are even capable. Sure, we can analyze and expound on aspects of this something, but getting to the real meat of the question--What IS it? HOW is it here? Why? (I can't even figure out the right question.) We hum the melody and strive to learn the lyrics, hoping to understand the song. Maybe one day we'll get there. But that will never begin to address the mystery that there's even a song at all. To me, the concept of God is no more outrageous than this eternal song...this something that we all KNOW exists. Maybe God IS the song. Just a thought.
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lucid_dream
post Feb 17, 2006, 02:28 AM
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OnlyNow, you hit the nail on the head. Your experience with the bible is not peculiar to the bible; it is true in general for all religious scriptures and doctrines. These religious works invariably contain a great deal of hand waving because the writers of scripture are a lot like car salesmen in that they are trying to sell you on the idea that they know something about God, and they will talk and talk, and blow so much hot air to fill the hindenberg, in order to convince you, the reader, that they are saying something significant. But the actual content of their bombast can usually be summarized in a few sentences. The problem is that these "religious authorities", these "religious car salesmen", are in the same boat that the most ignorant knaves are in, but by elevating their assumptions to unquestionable truths, they dupe the gullible and the weak-minded, and they acquire a small allegiance to their fantasies. Such is the way of religious institutions. If they are not functioning as vain social events for people of shallow mind to put their heads together and cluck like chickens, then they function as outright shams by trying to dupe the weak with fantasies from "religious authorities" who apparently can't contribute to society in a positive way. Oftentimes these religious car salesmen are just pawns themselves, being played by wiser car salesmen who have long since passed away. If only their foolish fantasies died with them, but no, as Rick pointed out, religions propagate themselves by duping others.

Lindsay, your rewording of what I said is nothing like what I said, and there are no minor edits I can make to make your rewording convey what I originally said.

QUOTE(Lindsay @ Feb 16, 12:57 PM) *
LD, I have no idea what you mean by: "I have had unfathomable (?) experiences, and now I am moving towards the next stage if my will permits it, before old age overtakes me. My time is short; hence my lack of patience."

you are a man of God by profession, and you do not know what I am talking about? Regardless of whether consciousness is the same light shining through each of us, and perhaps all the universe, the form of my consciousness is temporal, is fleeting. My state of self-awareness is a form of consciousness. Death, old age, and time in general, destroys all forms. Hence, my time is short. The unfathomable experience is exactly that. To explain more would be to fathom it, and this is not possible with the limitations of human language.

Joesus, the answers are Brihadaranyaka IV.5 (one of the Upanishads, like you noted), Yoga Vasistha (congrats, was not expecting you to get this but I figure you must have recognized "atomic space of consciousness" as one of the distinguished terms used in the Yoga Vasistha), and Schopenhauer's "The World as Will and Idea". Schopenhauer is trying to convince the reader that the kernel of reality is will, a never-ending striving, a ceaseless activity, a continuous flux; there is not only no rest for the wicked, but no rest for anything, anywhere, anytime. This is in contradistinction to those who preach that stasis and timeless being are of the essence of reality. Clearly, you know something of Eastern philosophy, but it is a shame that you have neglected Western. Why is that? If you are ignorant of great concepts of Western philosophy, how can you expect to teach others of truth when you have much to learn yourself?

In fairness, my interpretations are:
Mt 7:6 - do not share or give important things or wisdom to those who will not appreciate it.
Eccles 8:17 - that even the wisest men do not know and cannot fathom the full works of God.
Cor 2:9 - that the reward for those who love God is beyond our senses of sight and sound, but is of the heart.

Again I ask, what is there of wisdom in this, or any of the bible for that matter? I would like to hear your interpretation.
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Rick
post Feb 17, 2006, 12:46 PM
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QUOTE(Lindsay @ Feb 16, 09:00 PM) *

Furthermore, given that human beings, by nature, seem to be hard-wired to be religious--in one way or another--anyone who thinks that a sizeable number will abandon the religious component of their nature anytime soon has got to be living in denial of reality.

On the contrary, the fact that I have overcome my own hard-wired human inclination toward lazy acceptance of the easy answers provided by religion gives me hope that my words are doing some good. I have never said I deny the importance of the human emotion of reverence. I merely warn that it is our human duty to be sure that our reverence is not misguided or diverted by charlatans. Reason is the nature-given tool to accomplish these things.
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Joesus
post Feb 17, 2006, 01:49 PM
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QUOTE

In fairness, my interpretations are:
Mt 7:6 - do not share or give important things or wisdom to those who will not appreciate it.
Eccles 8:17 - that even the wisest men do not know and cannot fathom the full works of God.
Cor 2:9 - that the reward for those who love God is beyond our senses of sight and sound, but is of the heart.

Again I ask, what is there of wisdom in this, or any of the bible for that matter? I would like to hear your interpretation.


Well then we might be close to being on the same page in the interpretation of the scripture.

As for value. Do you see nothing of any truth in these words? How would you define wisdom?

Would you try and explain college physics to a 5 year old?
Is there a finite answer to any question?
What is the heart? Is it associated with attached feelings of love or unconditonal love, the love that supports all things, all choices all desires?
You mention feelings but what are feelings or what feelings are you associating with the heart?

Since you are convinced that I know nothing of Western philosophy then we will not discuss it. Let's stick to eastern since you find we have commonality there. I wouldn't want to make you uncomfortable in thinking that you won't be able to communicate with me in common terms.

This post has been edited by Joesus: Feb 17, 2006, 02:53 PM
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post Feb 17, 2006, 02:44 PM
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lucid_dream, post Yesterday, 11:28 PM
QUOTE
Lindsay, your rewording of what I said is nothing like what I said, and there are no minor edits I can make to make your rewording convey what I originally said.
NOTHING? You mean that you are NOT open-minded, RC, etc.? Then one of us must be from Venus, and the other from Mars. If this is true, then it is probably pointless for us to communicate in writing. No wonder we who live in the so-called "Judaeo/Christian West" cannot communicate with people and religions of the East, who often live in a different time frame. For example, with fundamentalist Muslims who still think in 12th-Century terms.

Meanwhile, it is interesting to speculate: What would it be like to have a verbal chat?
==============================================================
To my comment: "LD, I have no idea what you mean by: "I have had unfathomable (?) experiences, and now I am moving towards the next stage if my will permits it, before old age overtakes me. My time is short; hence my lack of patience" you responded: "You are a man of God by profession, and you do not know what I am talking about?" I prefer to think of myself as being IN G-D.

Then you added:
QUOTE
Regardless of whether consciousness is the same light shining through each of us, and perhaps all the universe, the form of my consciousness is temporal, is fleeting.....To explain more would be to fathom it, and this is not possible with the limitations of human language.
NOW I understand it. Without pride, prejudice or malice I add: It seems to me it is you who don't understand your fleeting consciousness and, therefore, have difficulty explaining it to others. No problem. We all feel this way, at times. smile.gif

This post has been edited by Lindsay: Feb 17, 2006, 02:50 PM
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lucid_dream
post Feb 18, 2006, 01:21 AM
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Rick, I agree with what you say. You put it nicely. I would only note that reason is not the only guide to truth. Some of our experiences defy rational explanation and understanding.

Joesus, the term 'heart' means many different things, even in eastern philosophy, but so far as your choices are concerned, I would think it closer to unconditional love. Clarification on what heart means to you would be appreciated. I do not use that term in the spiritual sense because it is fluffy. I do see some value to the bible and in the passages you quoted, but the bible has done much more harm than is acceptable. A more desirable religious work would not contain myriad assumptions pronounced as truths and would not be responsible for the close-mindedness, intolerance, and violence that the bible and other works have begotten throughout history. I am not convinced you know nothing of Western philosophy, only that you may be receptive to some ideas from there that you may not be aware of. Out of curiousity, do you still experience awe and mystery, or do you consider all experience old hat? What are your thoughts on whether all of this has an overarching purpose beyond the personal?

Lindsay, you may choose to believe to be in God in the same way that shoes are kept in a box. .. whatever. If God is all, then we are of God. I am not referring to fleeting consciousness that changes daily or hourly, but to the fact that our self-awareness is a form of consciousness, and that all forms are transient. It would seem that you don't understand transcendent consciousness. You cannot learn these things by reading about them.

Just for kicks, I have reposted your rewording of my post with my comments in red:

QUOTE(lucid_dream @ Feb 15, 11:18 PM) *
I was brought up in a typically Catholic home and community I said for a few years, meaning 3-4 years. When I was a child, I went to mass with the family I never said anything about family, said grace at meals, etc. However, things were oh so narrow and dull I never said this. I was not overly or positively impressed. never said this either

As soon as I got old enough, with the help of the media I never said anything about the media, I began to pay attention to what was going on in the world around meI never said this. I began to read, to listen to the opinions of others and to think for myself. I made up my mind that all religions, including Christianity, had nothing that made sense to me.I said I became aware that they were a crock, not that they didn't make sense to me

If being critical of others and saying this offends people, so be it. I never said 'so be it'

However, I am open-minded.

Also, I am offended I never said anything about being offended by truly stupid religious people, the kind who take the Bible, or other holy books, literally, .....I have no sympathy for such people, only disdain. Lindsay, do you understand that disdain is not the same as being offended?

However, I feel pity for those Christians, Muslims, Jews, whatever, who are good and intelligent peopleI never said anything about them being 'good' people but who are, obviously, not intelligent or strong enough to break free from their religous bonds. In a way, I pity them.

For me, true religion is to be found in direct experience, not in doctrines.


Like I said before, Lindsay, there are no small edits I can make to your rewording to make it like what I originally said. You completely distorted what I said and even fabricated large parts of it. Why is that?
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post Feb 18, 2006, 06:18 AM
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Holy ganesh droppings, Joesus is back? (more importantly, I'm back?!?) Are you looking for new converts Joesus? wink.gif
Shouldn't you be spending your time in sadhana instead of enjoying tamasic indulgences such as blithering about on this message board ?

This post has been edited by Dan: Feb 18, 2006, 02:40 PM
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post Feb 18, 2006, 12:11 PM
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QUOTE(Dan @ Feb 18, 11:18 AM) *

Holy ganesh droppings, Joesus is back? (more importantly, I'm back?!?) Are you looking for new converts Joesus? wink.gif
Shouldn't you be spending your time in sadhana instead of enjoying tomasic indulgences such as blithering about on this message board ?

I come down from the mountain top on occasion to answer a call for help. wink.gif
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post Feb 18, 2006, 12:32 PM
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QUOTE(lucid_dream @ Feb 17, 10:21 PM) *
Just for kicks, I have reposted your rewording of my post with my comments in red:......
LD, I like the way you re-edited my quote. Thanks for taking the time to do this. It shows that, when we are willing, sometimes, communication is possible. I now understand you, much better. I hope this answers you queston: "Why is that?"

Keep in mind that I did not claim that I COMPLETELY and accurately understood what you were trying to say. This is why I gave the feed back. What I fed back to you is what I actually FELT you were saying.

For example, in your last post to me you say, "You (Lindsay) completely distorted (twisted out of shape, misrepresented, falsified) what I said and even fabricated large parts of it." If I did this deliberately intending to make you look bad, you would be right. The fact is: That was not my intention. My intention was to get more details on the background of posters who want, I trust, a response.
===========================================================
BTW, to save time looking for the quote by LD--the one that I did NOT, intentionally. distort, here it is: Feb 15, 10:46 PM
QUOTE
I (LD) can't answer this-- (I, Lindsay, had asked for background information from LD and others)--without offending people. (Honest communication never offends me.)
To put it nicely, I am open-minded but critical. I was brought up in a catholic environment (Which one would presume includes the family). for a few years in youth, and even believed in your garden-variety god that you say grace to at dinner, but as soon as I began reading and assimilating other's thoughts,(Which I assume includes all media.)I knew Christianity and other religions were a crock. There is no excuse for them.( Very judgemental, IMO.)

You can say that they're opium for the masses, but that's not a good reason to keep them around or to be sympathetic. Naturally, I differentiate between the truly stupid (You don't find stupidity, especially the conscious kind, offensive?)religious people who take the bible or other holy works literally, and the thoughtful sheep, who consider themselves christians or whatever, but are more intelligent yet not strong enough of mind to break free from their religous bonds.

To the former, no sympathy, only disdain. (Open-minded?) To the latter, pity and respect if it's deserved. True religion is to be found in direct experience, not doctrine. Thus the parrots of the bible will get my foot in their mouth. I have had unfathomable experiences, and now I am moving towards the next stage if my will permits it, before old age overtakes me. My time is short; hence my lack of patience.

===============

This post has been edited by Lindsay: Feb 18, 2006, 12:46 PM
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post Feb 18, 2006, 12:48 PM
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Now, I feel, we ARE communicating!
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post Feb 18, 2006, 02:30 PM
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QUOTE(Joesus @ Feb 18, 09:11 AM) *

I come down from the mountain top on occasion to answer a call for help. wink.gif


did somebody call you here? are you sure it wasn't your own inner cry for attention that led you to this nexus of babble? huh.gif
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post Feb 18, 2006, 03:05 PM
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Dan what is your position on this thread regarding unexamined assumptions and the worth of holy literature?
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post Feb 18, 2006, 03:47 PM
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QUOTE(lucid_dream @ Feb 18, 12:05 PM) *

Dan what is your position on this thread regarding unexamined assumptions and the worth of holy literature?


Consciousness emerges from chaos via unexamined assumptions, therefore they have value. However, if one is to completely understand reality, one cannot take up permanent residence in any less-than-fully-examined state.
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