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BrainMeta Forums _ Critique of Religion _ Religions Actual Usefulness

Posted by: maximus242 Nov 29, 2006, 08:16 PM

Alright as your all quite familiar, terrorists are attacking everywhere, but few of us look at the root reason as to why they attack... Religion! Yes thats right, all those terrorists believe that by dying and killing people, they are doing their gods bidding and will be rewarded in the afterlife, boy are they in for a suprise.

Anyone remember a little thing called WWII? Remember something called the Holocaust? Why did such an atrocity occur? Because of the religion that people believed in!

Anyone else feel that religion causes more harm than good?

Posted by: Lindsay Nov 29, 2006, 10:27 PM

Max, what are you trying to do, start a fight? If so, put up your dukes!!!! laugh.gif

But seriously, first of all, you need to define what you mean by "religion"

IMO, we accomplish very little by stating the obvious? Let's face it: For better or for worse, people are, incurably, spiritual beings and, therefore, religious. Some religions, are downright evil--the ones based on dogma and power; some are just stupid--the ones based on ignorance and superstition, and some are doing a lot of good--that is, the ones based on morality, ethics and on teaching us to be just and of loving service to one another.

I prefer to spend my time bringing the latter kind together and using them to do a lot more good.

Posted by: maximus242 Nov 29, 2006, 10:51 PM

Yes but it is the power that comes with that religion that is the problem Lindsay. Look at the Pope, what he says is right and wrong affects the way millions of people organize their lives - absolute power corrupts absolutly

laugh.gif No im not trying to start a fight, just angry at all the suffering caused by something thats supposed to help people.

Posted by: Joesus Nov 29, 2006, 10:51 PM

Having A high I.Q. doesn't necessarily mean being intelligent.

WWII, The Nazis were a radical group that came about because of the economic situation in Germany. When a loaf of bread cost $1000.00 people became hungry and when panic sets in irrational thinking comes about and blame is cast in some direction that makes sense to the irrational mind.
Seeing as how the Jewish community was taking care of itself and had accumulated some wealth before the economic hard times, those who didn't have, took to blaming the ones who did have for their own problems.
Hitler was a mouthpiece of influence, not in the beginning as the leader, but as a resonant spokesperson for a radical group trying to disrupt government.
When Hitler took power and over time followed through with his distorted beliefs that the haves (Jews) were the reason for the have nots, then the wealth was stripped from the jews and they were put into labor camps where they were tortured, killed and scientifically experimented on.
Hitler also having been infected by syphilis took his distorted views to an extreme.

The reality of religions is that they come about when man looks for answers to freedom from suffering. Anyone who stands out as voice of truth may have a following and that following can be labeled as a religion.

I'm fascinated still by the fact that adults haven't executed children in their process of learning, for the process that leads to fighting is always ignorance of reality. Just as a school boy will pick a fight on the school yard because he doesn't like something about the other person adults who are still ignorant of their own feelings and understanding of reality will just like the school boy pick a fight with something he doesn't like about another. Without understanding the thinking and the background of the other he will strike first without asking questions because in his own mind is formulated all of the reasons to justify the uselessness of the other person.

The outer is always a reflection of what is held in the mind as truth. Right and wrong are defined individually according to ones own suffering and suffering can be defines as simply as being uncomfortable whether for a minute of for a lifetime.
Being uncomfortable with Life is caused by the misunderstanding of reality and lifes purpose.

Posted by: maximus242 Nov 29, 2006, 10:58 PM

Your right, having a high IQ only constitues logical intelligence, not emotional. When the emotions take over the logical mind, you better be in tuned to your feelings.

You know I will be the last person to generalize, all religions are not created equal - but its when the religions start taking on fanatical groups that issue death threats for having a cartoon of a religious leader. Or terrorizing innocent people because someone says they will live on in the afterlife because of it, this is when something needs to be done.

This is the real root of terrorisim, the religions that promise an afterlife of prosperity to those who give their lives for their religion and bring other people pain. Its at that point that the paticular religion is doing more harm than good that it needs to be disemminated or at least needs a major overhaul.

Certain Religions DO cause more happiness and prosperity than they cause harm. For example, Buddhism teaches to love all creatures and show everyone kindness and respect, I certainly do not have a problem with all religions - but I certainly have a problem with some.

I respect peoples rights to choose a religion, I just dont respect people who excuse murder with religion.

Posted by: Joesus Nov 29, 2006, 11:16 PM

People who suffer want freedom from suffering and are easily influenced by those who promise a way out.
As long as people exist who will put their needs before the needs of the many, greed will corrupt governments and religion.

People are not inherently bad nor is the reason for faith of any kind bad. Some things are necessary for the growth of humanity.
If you look at how many people don't participate in government, who don't vote, by reason that they believe they have no influence, there lies a potential melting pot for a savior to come along and give them hope and reason to move in a direction where they will have some influence on their own situations and their experience of helplessness.
What I describe exists in every country all over the world and those that are not starving and have clothes and a roof over their heads are not yet pushed to a point of radical aggression, but it wouldn't take much to push them. Just take away their freedom, their food and their homes and they may do whatever they can to survive even if it means killing their neighbor.

Posted by: maximus242 Nov 29, 2006, 11:23 PM

QUOTE
What I describe exists in every country all over the world and those that are not starving and have clothes and a roof over their heads are not yet pushed to a point of radical aggression, but it wouldn't take much to push them. Just take away their freedom, their food and their homes and they will do whatever they can to survive even if it means killing their neighbor.


A very acurate description indeed.

That is where I often refer to the Shepard leading the Sheep, the average person is a sheep and those who are the leaders are the shepards. The sheep do not think, they do not have opinions - they simply do to what their told.

Back in rome a prominent General staged an attack from Barbarians to get his men to fight... on September 11, George Bush... well you get the idea.

Posted by: Joesus Nov 29, 2006, 11:51 PM

QUOTE(maximus242 @ Nov 30, 2006, 04:23 AM) *

QUOTE
What I describe exists in every country all over the world and those that are not starving and have clothes and a roof over their heads are not yet pushed to a point of radical aggression, but it wouldn't take much to push them. Just take away their freedom, their food and their homes and they will do whatever they can to survive even if it means killing their neighbor.


A very acurate description indeed.

That is where I often refer to the Shepard leading the Sheep, the average person is a sheep and those who are the leaders are the shepards. The sheep do not think, they do not have opinions - they simply do to what their told.

The Sheep create their shepherds as they need them because they are not willing to lead themselves.

Posted by: Hey Hey Nov 30, 2006, 12:12 AM

I put to you that all of the agro in the world is simply evolution in action. And evolution does not always produce the perfect solutions; rather it just keeps throwing ideas into the ballpark. So why wouldn't we expect agro?

After world peace (utinam) we'll see the war of the worlds. Evolution is a fundamental principal of the universe (I predict).

Posted by: Joesus Nov 30, 2006, 12:17 AM

You predict, or cognize? Truth has no timeline.

Posted by: Hey Hey Nov 30, 2006, 12:20 AM

QUOTE(Joesus @ Nov 30, 2006, 05:17 AM) *

Truth has no timeline.

Truth evolves.

Posted by: Joesus Nov 30, 2006, 12:30 AM

Perception of Truth evolves

Posted by: Hey Hey Nov 30, 2006, 12:40 AM

If:

QUOTE(Joesus @ Nov 30, 2006, 05:17 AM) *

Truth has no timeline.

and
QUOTE(Joesus @ Nov 30, 2006, 05:17 AM) *

Perception of Truth evolves

Then perception of truth has no timeline.

But, more importantly, the perception of time has no truth.

Posted by: Joesus Nov 30, 2006, 01:26 AM

QUOTE
But, more importantly, the perception of time has no truth.

Self realization, awareness of Truth is perceived as evolution.

Posted by: Flex Nov 30, 2006, 01:53 AM

Is there anyone who
Ever remembers changing there mind from
The paint on a sign?
Is there anyone who really recalls
Ever breaking rank at all
For something someone yelled real loud one time

Everyone believes
In how they think it ought to be
Everyone believes
And they're not going easily

Belief is a beautiful armor
But makes for the heaviest sword
Like punching under water
You never can hit who you're trying for

Some need the exhibition
And some have to know they tried
It's the chemical weapon
For the war that's raging on inside

Everyone believes
From emptiness to everything
Everyone believes
And no ones going quietly

We're never gonna win the world
We're never gonna stop the war
We're never gonna beat this
If belief is what we're fighting for

What puts a hundred thousand children in the sand
Belief can
Belief can
What puts the folded flag inside his mother's hand
Belief can
Belief can

-John Mayer

Posted by: Hey Hey Nov 30, 2006, 01:55 AM

QUOTE(Joesus @ Nov 30, 2006, 06:26 AM) *

QUOTE
But, more importantly, the perception of time has no truth.

Self realization, awareness of Truth is perceived as evolution.

Time is merely a construct to make this reply come after your quote above. But you might believe in time. That could be your problem. Also, how can you believe in truth when you quote so much about illusion (your posts on other boards on this forum)?

Posted by: Flex Nov 30, 2006, 02:30 AM

lol don't even try to get an answer on this one...I have posed the same question like 6 times on the other boards with little success...Maybe if we both team up on him he will cave in tongue.gif

Posted by: Flex Nov 30, 2006, 02:41 AM

I can actually say that I have gotten a lot out of religion myself (indirectly). Coach Ben Parks is without a doubt the greatest man I have ever met. In all of my years of education, which I guess are not that many really, I have only been taught about life through Coach. He is a very religious man, but he has so much to offer. Nothing could express how greatful I am for all that he has given me.

Even on brain meta, religion has proven very useful. Lindsay for one has made a very positive contribution to my life--not once have I ever hear an unkind word from his. Even if I do not necessarily agree with all of his views, he still has much to teach me. If everyone held the same beliefs, then what would all of you intelectuals debate?

Lindsay I am sorry if I ever offend you with what I say, it is not my intension. Thank you very much for being such a great person, and enabling discussions by lending an opposing viewpoint.

Posted by: Hey Hey Nov 30, 2006, 03:01 AM

QUOTE(Flex @ Nov 30, 2006, 07:41 AM) *

not once have I ever hear an unkind word from her. Even if I do not necessarily agree with all of her views, she still has much to teach me.

Just to be scientific, she's a he:

Attached Image

And yes, I agree, he's one of the good guys.

Posted by: Flex Nov 30, 2006, 03:04 AM

QUOTE(Hey Hey @ Nov 30, 2006, 12:01 AM) *

QUOTE(Flex @ Nov 30, 2006, 07:41 AM) *

not once have I ever hear an unkind word from her. Even if I do not necessarily agree with all of her views, she still has much to teach me.

She's a he:

Attached Image


Lol no kidding? Well change those pronouns then smile.gif Like I said I did not mean to offend~ I'm going to go back and change those. But please keep this post, it is pretty funny I want to remember that little mistake hehe.

Posted by: Joesus Nov 30, 2006, 03:05 AM

QUOTE
Time is merely a construct to make this reply come after your quote above. But you might believe in time.


I might but how does that affect you?

QUOTE
That could be your problem.

Have you surmised that I have a problem?

QUOTE
Also, how can you believe in truth when you quote so much about illusion (your posts on other boards on this forum)?

Truth and illusion are two different things, relative to the construct to make a reply to the topic at hand..(to put in terms you like to use).

Posted by: Flex Nov 30, 2006, 03:11 AM

relative to what construct was this exactly?

Posted by: Joesus Nov 30, 2006, 05:00 AM

The constructs of reality that are created through illusions of changing beliefs and changing experiences..
Relative Truths change. They are illusions of truth.
There is one thing that never changes, perception of that can change when filtered through beliefs and personalities.

Posted by: Lindsay Nov 30, 2006, 11:19 AM

QUOTE(Flex @ Nov 30, 2006, 12:04 AM) *

QUOTE(Hey Hey @ Nov 30, 2006, 12:01 AM) *

QUOTE(Flex @ Nov 30, 2006, 07:41 AM) *

not once have I ever hear an unkind word from her. Even if I do not necessarily agree with all of her views, she still has much to teach me.

She's a he:Attached Image


Lol no kidding? Well change those pronouns then smile.gif Like I said I did not mean to offend~ I'm going to go back and change those. But please keep this post, it is pretty funny I want to remember that little mistake hehe.
How I got my name.

I am the seventh child of a family of eight. All now in the "other dimension"...wherever that is...except for my younger sister, who is one and one-half years younger than I. She and her large family live in Grande Cache, Alberta--wonderful part of the country.

Our parents were Eleazar (Hebrew for God has helped) King and Maud Kelloway (the Kells who went away, from Ireland to wherever)...I love word and delving into the root meanings of words and names. Our parents got little help from God and they needed another child like they needed another hole in their heads.

Believe it or not, I was named after the famous American avaitor, Charles A. Lindbergh, who was nick-named "Lucky Lindy". On his way to France, he flew right over St. John's, just a few miles from where I was born. My mother heard the name over the radio--lots of static in those days--as "Lindsay". I was number seven. Thus I got the name. And I have been very lucky. laugh.gif

BTW, I understand that "Lindsay" is a family name in Scotland. The Lindsays--linesayers--were the old poets.

Posted by: Flex Nov 30, 2006, 04:41 PM

Well now I know tongue.gif I would share an interesting story about my name (my real name) but I know nothing about it. lol I don't think I could even spell it till I was like 6

Posted by: Flex Nov 30, 2006, 04:42 PM

Well now I know tongue.gif I would share an interesting story about my name (my real name) but I know nothing about it. lol I don't think I could even spell it till I was like 6

Posted by: maximus242 Nov 30, 2006, 09:47 PM

QUOTE(Joesus @ Nov 30, 2006, 03:00 AM) *

The constructs of reality that are created through illusions of changing beliefs and changing experiences..
Relative Truths change. They are illusions of truth.
There is one thing that never changes, perception of that can change when filtered through beliefs and personalities.


That statement is also based on a perception.

Time is a mental construct used by the consciousness to percieve the relative flow of actions. The sub-conscious knows no time, people have experienced hours of time in only minutes while in the Alpha state - these theories were confirmed by Milton Erickson and Cooper. Thus we find that time and the passage of time is relative to our perception and can even be modified - time passes slower in stressful situations as a evolutionary defence mechanism and faster during enjoyable situations.

Posted by: Lindsay Nov 30, 2006, 11:17 PM

QUOTE(maximus242 @ Nov 29, 2006, 07:58 PM) *
Certain Religions DO cause more happiness and prosperity than they cause harm. For example, Buddhism teaches us to love all creatures and show everyone kindness and respect...
Interestingly, the great inventor, Tesla, very spiritually-minded scientist and the son of a religious leader, suggested that Buddhism and Christianity, combined, would make a very good kind of religion. I agree.

Max, your comment, as follows, makes sense:
QUOTE
I certainly do not have a problem with all religions...just some.


If I understand you, Max, it is fanaticism and superstition--sick religion--which you do not like, right? Join the club. Most moderate religious leaders, grounded in common-sense, agree with you. We also agree that there is room for a great variety of religions, including non-Christian ones.

WHAT IS A SICK RELIGION?
IMO, a sick religion is any one with leaders which advocate the following:

We are the one and only true custodians of the one true faith.
We have a hot line to the one true God, our God.
If necessary, we have the right to impose, by force, the one true faith on all people.
We have the right to define what is true politics, true education, including the sciences and the arts.
God, being infallible, has no need for democracy.
We expect the faithful to obey, pray and pay, without question.
=========================
What other points would you like to add?



Posted by: Flex Dec 01, 2006, 01:20 AM

QUOTE(Lindsay @ Nov 30, 2006, 08:17 PM) *

QUOTE(maximus242 @ Nov 29, 2006, 07:58 PM) *
Certain Religions DO cause more happiness and prosperity than they cause harm. For example, Buddhism teaches us to love all creatures and show everyone kindness and respect...
Interestingly, the great inventor, Tesla, very spiritually-minded scientist and the son of a religious leader, suggested that Buddhism and Christianity, combined, would make a very good kind of religion. I agree.

Max, your comment, as follows, makes sense:
QUOTE
I certainly do not have a problem with all religions...just some.


If I understand you, Max, it is fanaticism and superstition--sick religion--which you do not like, right? Join the club. Most moderate religious leaders, grounded in common-sense, agree with you. We also agree that there is room for a great variety of religions, including non-Christian ones.

WHAT IS A SICK RELIGION?
IMO, a sick religion is any one with leaders which advocate the following:

We are the one and only true custodians of the one true faith.
We have a hot line to the one true God, our God.
If necessary, we have the right to impose, by force, the one true faith on all people.
We have the right to define what is true politics, true education, including the sciences and the arts.
God, being infallible, has no need for democracy.
We expect the faithful to obey, pray and pay, without question.
=========================
What other points would you like to add?


You hit the nail on the head--I couldn't agree more.

Posted by: Joesus Dec 01, 2006, 02:03 AM

QUOTE
That statement is also based on a perception.

Of course it is. Truth can be cognized and is not illusive, just ignored.

Posted by: Hey Hey Dec 01, 2006, 07:12 AM

QUOTE(Joesus @ Dec 01, 2006, 07:03 AM) *

Truth can be cognized and is not illusive, just ignored.

OK J, the time has come. Tell us some truths.

Posted by: Joesus Dec 01, 2006, 12:44 PM

Time is irrelevent, Truth is outstanding.

Posted by: Hey Hey Dec 01, 2006, 01:36 PM

QUOTE(Joesus @ Dec 01, 2006, 05:44 PM) *

Time is irrelevent, Truth is outstanding.

So you can't actually give any examples, then?

Posted by: maximus242 Dec 01, 2006, 01:56 PM

Of course not, examples of truth are based on individual perception, what is true to Joesus may be false to you Hey Hey. The only one who can give examples of truth is yourself.

I suppose the one universal truth is there are no universal truths.

Posted by: Joesus Dec 01, 2006, 02:12 PM

The one universeal truth is the absolute

Posted by: Flex Dec 01, 2006, 04:38 PM

QUOTE(Joesus @ Dec 01, 2006, 11:12 AM) *

The one universeal truth is the absolute


To me truth connotes something universal~Truth is an axiom like A=A that is a truth. I don't care whos perception it is A will always be A

Posted by: maximus242 Dec 01, 2006, 05:07 PM

No. A=Perception of A

Posted by: Flex Dec 01, 2006, 05:10 PM

QUOTE(maximus242 @ Dec 01, 2006, 02:07 PM) *

No. A=Perception of A


No A=A. A is an idea, and you perception of the idea and the idea itself are one in the same. Everything is in a constant state of flux. You perception of A will change over time as A itself changes but A will always = A

Posted by: Lindsay Dec 01, 2006, 08:14 PM

QUOTE(Flex @ Nov 30, 2006, 10:20 PM) *

...WHAT IS A SICK RELIGION?
IMO, a sick religion is any one with leaders which advocate the following:

We are the one and only true custodians of the one true faith.
We have a hot line to the one true God, our God.
If necessary, we have the right to impose, by force, the one true faith on all people.
We have the right to define what is true politics, true education, including the sciences and the arts.
God, being infallible, has no need for democracy.
We expect the faithful to obey, pray and pay, without question.
=============================
What other points would you like to add?
You hit the nail on the head--I couldn't agree more.
Okay, the next questions are:
What is the best way to deal with sick religions?
What are healthy ones?

Posted by: Flex Dec 01, 2006, 08:18 PM

A healthy religion would be one which still allows for freedom of thought, and that can change over time with society. The best way to deal with sick religions would be to promote free thought. If one has free thought they will not be indoctrined by sick religion.

Posted by: Lindsay Dec 01, 2006, 11:01 PM

QUOTE(Flex @ Dec 01, 2006, 05:18 PM) *

A healthy religion would be one which still allows for freedom of thought, and that can change over time with society.

The best way to deal with sick religions would be to promote free thought.

If one has free thought they will not be indoctrined by sick religion.
Good point. I find that what you write is a good contribution to the dialogue.

Questions:
In the final analysis, how truly free is any one of us, in relation to family, community, nation, or the globe on which we all live?
In other words: To what extent are we free to do what we like?

More questions: Which is more important, the freedom of the individual, or the freedom of the collective? Or it is possible to balance them?

Posted by: Hey Hey Dec 02, 2006, 01:12 AM

QUOTE(maximus242 @ Dec 01, 2006, 06:56 PM) *

Of course not, examples of truth are based on individual perception, what is true to Joesus may be false to you Hey Hey.

We have to be more specific as to what "truths" mean here. Do we mean universal laws, perceptions of the world out there, perceptions of our inner world of mind/consciousness etc?

Trouble is, if your comment on individual perception of truths is true (sorry!), then there will be many different possible truths, as we all perceive differently due to our different physiologies (sensors) and interpretations (cerebral capacity). How could we ever know which are the real truths?
QUOTE(maximus242 @ Dec 01, 2006, 06:56 PM) *

I suppose the one universal truth is there are no universal truths.

Rhetoric aside, what you say is true. But will we ever get closer to truths?

Posted by: Hey Hey Dec 02, 2006, 01:27 AM

QUOTE(Flex @ Dec 01, 2006, 10:10 PM) *

You perception of A will change over time as A itself changes but A will always = A

... to you, but not to me or anyone else. We might be close but we will never perceive the same. Also, if A, or your perception of A, changes over time then what it becomes is no longer A. And ... A is only A for an infinitely small amount of time before it changes (and/or your perception of it changes), just as "now" is an infinitely small amount if time, so there is essentially no 'now", no time. This means that A is never A. In fact, there never was an A to be or not to be A. We are back to illusions again.

Posted by: Joesus Dec 02, 2006, 02:03 AM

Actually, just because perception is in a perpetual state of change does not mean what is perceived changes at all, nor does it mean something doesn't exist.
The source of all creation and perception may be filtered by levels of stress in the nervous system but the universal source must be stable enough to support all perceptions regardless of how skewed they may appear, or perception of self and self perception would cease to continue and evolve.

Posted by: maximus242 Dec 02, 2006, 12:42 PM

While thats a valid possibility Joesus, thats dependant on the theory that what we percieve is based on something outside of our minds. But it is equally as possible that this could be a dream, hallucination or prehaps we have achieved a connection of consciousness' and we use this reality as a means to interact with each other.

Flex, god dammit A does not = A. I could go so indepth as to why but you wont listen anyways so I am not going to waste my time. Further more, A can = B, or go down multiple levels of the transitive property. Also if A=A then A remains undefined as it has no definiton and that which is undefined has no substance.

It is like saying a cat is a cat. If you were to look that up in a dictionary what would that tell you? Nothing unless you knew what a cat was.

If you tell a computer A=A it starts going psychotic because you have an undefined variable.

A is equal to the association of A which includes the perception of the object known as A which is comprised of various elements from the individuals reality. A=A means absolutly nothing, thats like if someone asks "whats water?" - "water is water" It meaningless. When you think of water, you dont see large letters that say water - you see various images and memories of water and that is what water is equal to!

Posted by: Joesus Dec 02, 2006, 01:42 PM

QUOTE
While thats a valid possibility Joesus, thats dependant on the theory that what we percieve is based on something outside of our minds.

Theory based on what underlies all realities and supports all realities comes as a result of being out of our minds, or maybe it would be better said out of a mind connected to the heart and soul of the Self.

QUOTE
But it is equally as possible that this could be a dream, hallucination or prehaps we have achieved a connection of consciousness' and we use this reality as a means to interact with each other.

This is more than a possibility. When the mind is out of the experience of the present moment and searches backwards and forwards for a means of intellectual support other than the one most obvious in being, illusions are created, dreams of reality are manufactured in theories and sand castles.

Posted by: maximus242 Dec 02, 2006, 08:55 PM

Indeed, it would seem we are hoplessly trapped within ourselves.

Posted by: Joesus Dec 02, 2006, 09:01 PM

Only from the ego and its point of reference in separation.

Posted by: maximus242 Dec 02, 2006, 09:19 PM

But to seperate oneself from thyself is to loose oneself altogether. Prehaps to escape this seemingly hopeless trap of perception, a person must change themselves in order to change the reality that surrounds them.

Posted by: Joesus Dec 02, 2006, 10:09 PM

One way it has been described is to let go of the programs which are running in the mind and block clear perception.
The mind that is constantly running, recycling some 100,000 thoughts per day consumes more energy and stresses the nervous system.

One need only expand conscious awareness or remove all of the stress from the central nervous system to open the subtle senses.

Posted by: maximus242 Dec 03, 2006, 02:27 PM

Hmm, intresting idea. I suppose if you were to create a alternate reality within the mind, in which you have no stress, no worries, no cares, where your mind is completly clear... then this would be possible. First two things that come to mind which are capable of such a thing are hypnosis and meditation.

Posted by: Joesus Dec 03, 2006, 08:53 PM

Wouldn't hypnosis only circumvent the stress?

Posted by: maximus242 Dec 04, 2006, 05:33 PM

Nope, at least it shouldnt, fact is hypnosis naturally relaxes a subject and relieves stress.

Posted by: Joesus Dec 04, 2006, 09:12 PM

So your suggesting hypnosis can permanently wipe out the internal programming that creates stress.

Posted by: Joesus Dec 05, 2006, 01:54 AM

yes

Posted by: maximus242 Dec 05, 2006, 01:47 PM

QUOTE(Joesus @ Dec 04, 2006, 07:12 PM) *

So your suggesting hypnosis can permanently wipe out the internal programming that creates stress.


No, it simply creates an alternate reality that is void of stress.

This causes the subject to become more relaxed in so called "actual reality"

Posted by: Joesus Dec 05, 2006, 01:53 PM

"Actual reality" then falling into whatever is suggested by the hypnotist.
But what then happens to the internal programs taken on by the sense of will in the individual (memory), is it erased?

Posted by: maximus242 Dec 05, 2006, 07:43 PM

No, the internal programs of will and ethics are still existant.

The individual cannot be construed to knowingly do something that violates their ethics.

Hypnosis is simply a third party who by-passes the conscious and speaks directly to the obidient sub-conscious. The sub-conscious can still be ordered around by the conscious mind as well, sense of will is limited to the conscious mind, sense of morals and ethics is both conscious and sub-conscious.

The memories of an individual can be forgotten or suppressed or even changed. However it is a very difficult thing to cause a person to forget strong memories, it has a neurological imprint and requires a very deep level of hypnosis and even then it is only temporary unless hypnosis is redone every month or so. It is however fairly easy to make a person forget certain things, making them forget who they are entirely is known as Deep Hypnosis Identification. This is where they identify themselves as another person with a completly diffrent memory and personality.

Posted by: Lindsay Dec 05, 2006, 08:05 PM

QUOTE(maximus242 @ Dec 01, 2006, 10:56 AM) *

Of course not, examples of truth are based on individual perception, what is true to Joesus may be false to you, Hey Hey. The only one who can give examples of truth is yourself.

I suppose the one universal truth is there are no universal truths.
Again, I tend to want to agree with you, Max smile.gif However, I am prompted to ask: What do we do with laws which have been established by scientific experiments?

Posted by: maximus242 Dec 05, 2006, 08:38 PM

Realize that science has been wrong before and will be wrong again.

Use the laws that give us benifit, discard the ones that bring us harm. Remember that all realities have laws and it is those laws which make them seem more real to us, the laws enhance our experience of reality.

Make your own decisions, decide your own truth. Thats the conclusion I came to and ive been happier because of it.

If you want a god, make a god, if you want a heaven then it shall be so. Realising that you can create your own truths, essentially makes you the god of your reality.

I do stress the fine line between making truths and dillusion, it seems as though you are still bound to work in the laws of your reality. In other words, every reality has laws, these laws define the reality and make it seem real to us. It seems as though we cannot violate such laws, only change the laws (dont forget 500 years ago the universe revolved around the earth). So whatever the laws are in your reality, you have to work with them.

So prehaps we are demi-gods of reality, as such, you can live whatever life you want to. Granted one cannot snap their fingers and become emperor of rome... but, you can create an alternate reality, snap your fingers and become emperor of rome. You could also restore the roman empire and proclaim yourself as emperor Ceaser II.

Alternativly, you cannot pull out the next great american novel from a magic hat. However you can create a alternate reality where you did, then reverse engineer the entire process to find out how to make the next great american novel and make it in this reality. The sub-conscious has the power to come up with the entire novel for you, why should you do the work when your uber powerful subconscious can do it for you?

Rules of reality are like those of a video game, they are there to make the experience challenging and fun, but there are glitches and ways to work around the rules too. These can be found either scientifically or philosophically.

Posted by: Hey Hey Dec 10, 2006, 07:17 PM

"The axiom that values come from reason or religion is wrong... There are better ways of ensuring moral motivation than scaring the crap out of people." - Patricia Churchland, philosopher, University of California, San Diego

Posted by: project-2501 Dec 10, 2006, 08:03 PM

Religion is always about power play. Wherever there are priests there will be problems.

Posted by: Joesus Dec 10, 2006, 09:11 PM

Wherever there is ego there will be choices made from fear and the attempt to manipulate and control the environment. This is relevent to an social system, religion is not the problem.

Posted by: maximus242 Dec 10, 2006, 10:24 PM

Religion can create problems, but the attempt to control ones environment is sociological, but completly giving up the attempt to control anything is also a psychological hinderance. Seems as though a balance is needed.

Posted by: Joesus Dec 11, 2006, 03:56 AM

I remember a guy who wore a vest with print, that said "If it has tits or wheels, it's gonna give you trouble!"

We can put blame on anything as the cause of our problems. Balance can only occur when there is the experience of Universal Truth, or when one can stand back and observe the choices people make and allow them to make their choices without being invested in their choices.
There is a certain amount of inevitablity to the universe, like if you stand in the rain your gonna get wet kinda thing but there is no inevitability in choices being made by others, to cause another or the world to suffer.
People see problems when something directly affects them. Humanity being somewhat flexible can move beyond any condition if it has a mind to.
I think there are a few that have no patience.

Posted by: maximus242 Dec 11, 2006, 07:19 PM

Your not going to get wet if you have a raincoat on ^.-

Posted by: Flex Dec 11, 2006, 10:12 PM

QUOTE(maximus242 @ Dec 11, 2006, 04:19 PM) *

Your not going to get wet if you have a raincoat on ^.-


I am assuming you don't go out in the rain too much~

Posted by: Joesus Dec 12, 2006, 02:23 AM

I think he was making a joke..

Posted by: project-2501 Dec 12, 2006, 12:53 PM

QUOTE(Joesus @ Dec 11, 2006, 02:11 AM) *

Wherever there is ego there will be choices made from fear and the attempt to manipulate and control the environment. This is relevent to an social system, religion is not the problem.


I am a product of a failed evangelical christian fundamentalist dogma. I certainly do not think then when I was a practising evangelical I had any choice at all, my choices were all dictated and not of my own will.
Religion comes from the root latin word religo - which means to tie, to fasten and keep behind. In my opinion religion was ALWAYS meant as a method to control people and repress their own intellect.

Posted by: Joesus Dec 12, 2006, 01:05 PM

Humanity, a victimized society of circumstance.

Well then if you accept your own circumstances you fully accept everyone else and allow them to be who they are according to their circumstances.

Life is a product of programming and has no value other than to fall victim to circumstance.

Posted by: project-2501 Dec 12, 2006, 02:24 PM

QUOTE(Joesus @ Dec 12, 2006, 06:05 PM) *

Humanity, a victimized society of circumstance.

Well then if you accept your own circumstances you fully accept everyone else and allow them to be who they are according to their circumstances.

Life is a product of programming and has no value other than to fall victim to circumstance.


And so it was, is and shall continue to be.

However this begs the question;

What created the circumstances?

Posted by: maximus242 Dec 12, 2006, 03:32 PM

Depends on your philosophy, if you beileve in a god then the god made them.

If you are an atheist then you come to realize that reality is a thing of the mind, created by the mind and therefore, everything that was and ever shall be is directly affected by your mind.

I suppose a third view could be a pseudo version of the two combined...

Yeah I was making a joke.

Posted by: project-2501 Dec 12, 2006, 03:38 PM

QUOTE(maximus242 @ Dec 12, 2006, 08:32 PM) *

Depends on your philosophy, if you beileve in a god then the god made them.

If you are an atheist then you come to realize that reality is a thing of the mind, created by the mind and therefore, everything that was and ever shall be is directly affected by your mind.

I suppose a third view could be a pseudo version of the two combined...



This is why creation, or art is a very strange concept indeed.

Posted by: maximus242 Dec 12, 2006, 03:44 PM

I do not understand?

The mind creates all reality, therefore, for the mind to create something like art - is very natural. It would be strange if there was no art.

Posted by: project-2501 Dec 12, 2006, 04:01 PM

QUOTE(maximus242 @ Dec 12, 2006, 08:44 PM) *

I do not understand?

The mind creates all reality, therefore, for the mind to create something like art - is very natural. It would be strange if there was no art.


I mean art in the truer sence. I mean the actual essence of creatitivity itself. For the mind to create its reality the mind must have a platform or a medium to operate on. From where does this creative 'essence' if you like come from? And what is it?

Posted by: Hey Hey Dec 12, 2006, 04:06 PM

QUOTE(Joesus @ Dec 12, 2006, 06:05 PM) *
Life is a product of programming and has no value other than to fall victim to circumstance.
I never though I'd hear J admit that genes and environment determine all we are. (just joking, of course he's not .... is he?)

Posted by: Joesus Dec 12, 2006, 07:58 PM

QUOTE(Hey Hey @ Dec 12, 2006, 09:06 PM) *

QUOTE(Joesus @ Dec 12, 2006, 06:05 PM) *
Life is a product of programming and has no value other than to fall victim to circumstance.
I never though I'd hear J admit that genes and environment determine all we are. (just joking, of course he's not .... is he?)

No, I was being facetious.

QUOTE
What created the circumstances?

That'd be you..

Posted by: Flex Dec 12, 2006, 08:14 PM

QUOTE(Joesus @ Dec 12, 2006, 04:58 PM) *

QUOTE(Hey Hey @ Dec 12, 2006, 09:06 PM) *

QUOTE(Joesus @ Dec 12, 2006, 06:05 PM) *
Life is a product of programming and has no value other than to fall victim to circumstance.
I never though I'd hear J admit that genes and environment determine all we are. (just joking, of course he's not .... is he?)

No, I was being facetious.

QUOTE
What created the circumstances?

That'd be you..


J-Man have you ever read Freakonomics? I recommend you do--there is a particular section about nature v. nurture that is pretty interesting. You may question your beliefs a bit~

Posted by: Joesus Dec 12, 2006, 08:26 PM

What beleifs?

Posted by: Flex Dec 12, 2006, 08:37 PM

QUOTE(Joesus @ Dec 12, 2006, 05:26 PM) *

What beleifs?


"I never though I'd hear J admit that genes and environment determine all we are. (just joking, of course he's not .... is he?)

No, I was being facetious."

Posted by: maximus242 Dec 12, 2006, 09:11 PM

Hmm? what beliefs indeed, I also do not get what your saying Flex.

Posted by: Flex Dec 12, 2006, 10:26 PM

QUOTE(maximus242 @ Dec 12, 2006, 06:11 PM) *

Hmm? what beliefs indeed, I also do not get what your saying Flex.


Ahh scratch that I forgot what I was talking about smile.gif

Posted by: code buttons Dec 15, 2006, 05:15 PM

QUOTE(Flex @ Dec 12, 2006, 07:26 PM) *

QUOTE(maximus242 @ Dec 12, 2006, 06:11 PM) *

Hmm? what beliefs indeed, I also do not get what your saying Flex.


Ahh scratch that I forgot what I was talking about smile.gif

Is that "ahh" as in: ahh! (apathy)? or as in: err! (disdain)?

Posted by: Flex Dec 15, 2006, 07:18 PM

Ahh as in ahh I give up my memory sucks~

Posted by: Lindsay Dec 22, 2007, 03:10 PM

[quote name='project-2501' date='Dec 12, 2006, 09:53 AM' post='73505']

P-2501, thanks for your excellent definition of "sick religion" when you write: "I am a product of a failed evangelical christian fundamentalist dogma. I certainly do not think then when I was a practising evangelical I had any choice at all, my choices were all dictated and not of my own will.
Religion comes from the root latin word religo - which means to tie, to fasten and keep behind. In my opinion religion was ALWAYS meant as a method to control people and repress their own intellect."
Are you convinced that all religion must be this way?

Posted by: Rick Dec 26, 2007, 02:55 PM

QUOTE(maximus242 @ Nov 29, 2006, 05:16 PM) *
... Yes thats right, all those terrorists believe that by dying and killing people, they are doing their gods bidding and will be rewarded in the afterlife, boy are they in for a suprise.

Ironically, they will never know. Death is final.

The only kind of religion that could be "good" would be one that enhances the knowledge of its followers. Since the only practice that does that is science, there is no good religion.

Every "good" that comes from religion could be had in a way that does no extraneous harm. Sacrificing knowledge of reality for comfort is a sucker's reward.

Enhancing the irony further, the false religious comfort is also unnecessary. Reality brings its own good news. Even better, the good news of reality is true: ask not "who am I," ask rather "who am I not?"

Posted by: Lindsay Dec 27, 2007, 04:26 PM

QUOTE(Rick @ Dec 26, 2007, 11:55 AM) *
Rick's dogma" smile.gif "...Ironically, they will never know. Death is final."..."The only kind of religion that could be "good" would be one that enhances the knowledge of its followers. Since the only practice that does that is science, there is no good religion..."
Just this AM I heard and interview (CBC) with a professor and researcher at the University of Montreal, Dr. Mario Beauregard. I was about his book:
The Spiritual Brain: A Neuroscientist's Case for the Existence of the Soul (Hardcover)
http://www.amazon.com/gp/reader/0060858834/ref=sib_dp_pop_bc/002-7999092-9920840?ie=UTF8&p=S0AS#reader-link
===========
While you are at it, check out:
There Is a God: How the World's Most Notorious Atheist Changed His Mind
Antony Flew, Roy Abraham Varghese

http://www.amazon.com/gp/reader/0061335290/ref=sib_dp_pop_ex/002-7999092-9920840?ie=UTF8&p=S015#reader-link
BTW, I prefer to say, there is GØD, or GØD is. Not, there is a God.
=======
To be fair, I found this interesting. It describes Roy Abraham Varghese as a con.
http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2007/11/roy_varghese_and_the_exploitat.php

Posted by: Rick Jan 07, 2008, 04:47 PM

QUOTE(Lindsay @ Dec 27, 2007, 01:26 PM) *
... To be fair, I found this interesting. It describes Roy Abraham Varghese as a con.
http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2007/11/roy_varghese_and_the_exploitat.php

So why are Christians so desperate? It's because they know unconsciously that they have a losing proposition.

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