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Magister Hayk
post Feb 09, 2012, 04:58 PM
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The hidden facts eventually unfold themselves. Interesting phenomena.
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Joesus
post Feb 09, 2012, 05:38 PM
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QUOTE(Dan @ Feb 09, 2012, 08:40 PM) *

QUOTE(Joesus @ Feb 09, 2012, 12:35 PM) *

QUOTE(Dan @ Feb 09, 2012, 08:26 PM) *

Sri Danananda it is!


Really... does that mean your gonna get rid of the Jetsons smoking robot avatar?

Dude, how can you disrespect Bender? He is one of my gurus! Curses upon ye!!

No disrespect intended, just asking.

Please.... take the curse away.. sad.gif
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Dan
post Feb 10, 2012, 01:31 PM
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QUOTE(lucid_dream @ Feb 05, 2012, 05:12 AM) *

it is good to hear from you again, Dan. I've been reading posts here when I can, but have not contributed much for some time. I have been busy with an ambitious brain mapping project, which I will be able to discuss more in due time.

Dude, I almost didn't recognize you! It seems Trip is also unaware? Anyway, it's good to see you kicking about. So, what's the latest thought in the field regarding how the brain material/structure is connected to the "subject" of perceptions? Is such a "subject" considered worth discussing? My bet is that focus is on identifying spatio-temporal patterns in connectivity with maximal resolution. Such maps will surely contain information regarding such a mind-brain relationship I hope. I consider the Singularity event (from a human perspective) to on the horizon when we (well, not me ... maybe you?) unlock the mind-brain link in physical terms and implement it into non-biological brains.
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Flex
post Feb 10, 2012, 01:50 PM
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Could someone please explain to me how understanding the connectivity of the circuits has anything to do with the mind-brain debate? Even if you know the flow of currents, what does it matter? To me this is like looking at a computers hardware while running some software, only to watch the hardware perform a mechanical function. The computer itself is not conscious, but the operator is.

To me, a map is an ineffective tool to understanding consciousness.
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lucid_dream
post Feb 10, 2012, 02:44 PM
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QUOTE(Flex @ Feb 10, 2012, 11:50 AM) *

Could someone please explain to me how understanding the connectivity of the circuits has anything to do with the mind-brain debate? Even if you know the flow of currents, what does it matter? To me this is like looking at a computers hardware while running some software, only to watch the hardware perform a mechanical function. The computer itself is not conscious, but the operator is.

To me, a map is an ineffective tool to understanding consciousness.


the connectivity map will reflect the structure of our consciousness or conscious awareness and will provide insight into the organization of mind.

The software will be reflected in the brain's hardware. It's not a clean separation between the two like in the computers that man builds. Brain connectivity will inform us about function, though to what extent is an open question.

Personally, I'm more interested in how the structure of our mind is reflected in the connectivity map; introspection only gets you so far. From what we know of the connectivity map so far, it is far more complex and elaborate than any theories of mind, past or present. In a way, the connectivity map will inform us more about our selves, insofar as we are our minds, than anything else.

As to the mind-brain debate, insofar as mind and the structure of our consciousness is reflected in brain connectivity, then that is consistent with the identity of the two. Whether it will reveal anything further of interest for consciousness studies remains to be determined.
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Joesus
post Feb 10, 2012, 02:51 PM
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QUOTE(lucid_dream @ Feb 10, 2012, 07:44 PM) *

In a way, the connectivity map will inform us more about our selves, insofar as we are our minds, than anything else.

Mind, being ...??
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Dan
post Feb 10, 2012, 02:55 PM
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QUOTE(Flex @ Feb 10, 2012, 10:50 AM) *

Could someone please explain to me how understanding the connectivity of the circuits has anything to do with the mind-brain debate? Even if you know the flow of currents, what does it matter? To me this is like looking at a computers hardware while running some software, only to watch the hardware perform a mechanical function. The computer itself is not conscious, but the operator is.

To me, a map is an ineffective tool to understanding consciousness.


Hi Flex

I take it this is a topic of great interest to you, so I will try to keep it simple and to the point.

In your analogy, the mind/brain is functionally equivalent to the software/computer. If we consider an "operator" in the software/computer analogy, we must consider an equivalent in the mind/brain system. What is this equivalent? We know that the "operator" relates to the software/computer system through physical contact. In the equivalent mind/brain system, is there also "physical contact" with the "operator"? If so, can we identify the contact points?

By analogy, studying the software/computer system during operation should show a mysterious imposition of information through the keyboard and an apparently useless but highly organized production of patterns on the screen. Does a similar mysterious imposition and output exist in the brain? If so, how might we identify the "nodes" of this system (the "keyboard"s and "screen"s)? And, if we can understand how to make such brain "keyboards" and "screens", do you suppose a synthetic brain utilizing such i/o nodes might also be "operated" in the same way that your brain is operated by you?
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lucid_dream
post Feb 10, 2012, 03:03 PM
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a definition of mind? It would be the structure underlying our individual conscious lives. Leaving aside panpsychism, some aspects of the individual's mind include, for instance, subject/object duality, the spatial relations between two visual objects, and the similarities between two emotional states. i'm not dogmatic about the origin or ground of consciousness, and brain connectivity will unlikely contribute to this. But it will contribute to demonstrating that the structure of our mental world is reflected in the brain's connectivity, which is consistent with an identity.
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Flex
post Feb 10, 2012, 03:09 PM
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What are the ultimate goals of mapping structure? How would this be applied to a clinical setting?

I am personally interested in determining the effects different terpenes have on consciousness and cytochrome p450 activity to possibly create a molecular map.
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lucid_dream
post Feb 10, 2012, 03:24 PM
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different people will tell you different ultimate goals. For a clinical setting, in order to understand a diseased brain, it helps to understand a normal brain, and there are several diseases, such as schizophrenia and autism, that have been linked to abnormal brain connectivity, so having a connectivity map for normal and diseased brains would allow you to better understand the nature of the disease.

But I think any worthwhile ultimate goal would have to look beyond disease and the clinical setting. If self-knowledge was the only goal, that would be sufficient and is worth devoting a lifetime (or a few) for.
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Jakare
post Feb 10, 2012, 04:48 PM
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QUOTE(Flex @ Feb 10, 2012, 09:09 PM) *

What are the ultimate goals of mapping structure? How would this be applied to a clinical setting?


I think it is aswell a first step for many other future applications.
To create more advanced AIs for example by emulating the brains way of processing information.
A first step for Mind Uploading? Or at least memories backup on the future?

Whether the Brain/Mind=Hardware/Software approach can be more or less accurate Is quite likely that Biotechnology will allow us to connect the brain with external sources of information. Therefore, several questions arise. Imagine smile.gif you wish to 'download' Repo Men into your brain. So, do you need to make two different connections one to the auditive cortex and another one to the visual one? Or can the stream of data be directed to a single central point (Self-ego module?) where the brain can sort of decode and send the signals to their own module-cortex? Will the movie be experienced in real time as in a cinema or will it be managed like a memory by the brain? As if you had already seen it.

From a Biochemistry point of view, could 'Repo Men' be installed in a sublingual pill or in a injection and then be stored like a memory that you would dream next night?

And the ultimate goal is simply beauty, I am afraid. To see how brains transfer information within themselves is a nature´s wonder just as Northern lights or a Supernova.
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post Feb 12, 2012, 08:29 AM
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QUOTE(Dan @ Feb 09, 2012, 12:02 PM) *

QUOTE(Trip like I do @ Feb 03, 2012, 08:33 PM) *

Hey Hey and Rick are no longer around unfortunately.... and shawn does not contribute much anymore!


I guess Rick became bored with the same-same

bahaha.... gotta hey hey rick! G1
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post Feb 12, 2012, 08:32 AM
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QUOTE(Dan @ Feb 09, 2012, 01:26 PM) *

QUOTE(Joesus @ Feb 09, 2012, 09:40 AM) *

Herpes?... Actually that was your idea. Comes in with a bunch of fire and fury and then disappears for a while, only to return with a vengeance. It could work... unsure.gif

While it fits the bill in an important way, it's a bit lowbrow for my ego health. Too much "disgust" factor, might inhibit my style! I want something that is self deprecating and inspiring.

.... abreva? It may just fit both the above criteria wink.gif
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post Feb 12, 2012, 08:34 AM
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QUOTE(Magister Hayk @ Feb 09, 2012, 04:58 PM) *

The hidden facts eventually unfold themselves. Interesting phenomena.

that indeed they do
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post Feb 12, 2012, 08:39 AM
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QUOTE(Dan @ Feb 10, 2012, 01:31 PM) *

QUOTE(lucid_dream @ Feb 05, 2012, 05:12 AM) *

it is good to hear from you again, Dan. I've been reading posts here when I can, but have not contributed much for some time. I have been busy with an ambitious brain mapping project, which I will be able to discuss more in due time.

Dude, I almost didn't recognize you! It seems Trip is also unaware?

I am aware!
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post Feb 12, 2012, 08:43 AM
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QUOTE(lucid_dream @ Feb 10, 2012, 02:44 PM) *

QUOTE(Flex @ Feb 10, 2012, 11:50 AM) *

Could someone please explain to me how understanding the connectivity of the circuits has anything to do with the mind-brain debate? Even if you know the flow of currents, what does it matter? To me this is like looking at a computers hardware while running some software, only to watch the hardware perform a mechanical function. The computer itself is not conscious, but the operator is.

To me, a map is an ineffective tool to understanding consciousness.


the connectivity map will reflect the structure of our consciousness or conscious awareness and will provide insight into the organization of mind.

The software will be reflected in the brain's hardware. It's not a clean separation between the two like in the computers that man builds. Brain connectivity will inform us about function, though to what extent is an open question.

Personally, I'm more interested in how the structure of our mind is reflected in the connectivity map; introspection only gets you so far. From what we know of the connectivity map so far, it is far more complex and elaborate than any theories of mind, past or present. In a way, the connectivity map will inform us more about our selves, insofar as we are our minds, than anything else.

As to the mind-brain debate, insofar as mind and the structure of our consciousness is reflected in brain connectivity, then that is consistent with the identity of the two. Whether it will reveal anything further of interest for consciousness studies remains to be determined.

I noted some buzz lately on the potential use of neuroscience and it's implementation in the next big warfare weaponry! Why do we as humans always have to gear new discoveries towards potential lethal forms of weaponry.... tread lightly my friend
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post Feb 12, 2012, 08:59 PM
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QUOTE(Flex @ Feb 10, 2012, 10:50 AM) *

Could someone please explain to me how understanding the connectivity of the circuits has anything to do with the mind-brain debate?

Err!!! For all the reasons you don't learn Anatomy and Physiology separately in college? Some questions may just require the simplest of answers.
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post Feb 12, 2012, 09:10 PM
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QUOTE(Dan @ Feb 09, 2012, 09:06 AM) *

I am currently trying to capture a lightning bolt and extract secrets about the whereabouts of Thor.

Thor, hey?! So, that's what you look like!... I had picture you looking like this all along!!!

My bad, Dan!!!
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Flex
post Feb 15, 2012, 10:18 PM
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http://topdocumentaryfilms.com/blood-and-g...ory-of-surgery/
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