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> today is today is today, where to base your mind while applying life to the moment
flowerfairy
post Oct 20, 2004, 01:20 AM
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people often base their mindsets of today on yesterday and tomorow. this is usually true for me, but today was today. today was one of the few days in my world where today wasn't yesterday and today wasn't tomorow. but today has just turned into yesterday since i am sitting here writing it down. it is a strange feeling for today to be today. it makes you aprehensive, but you don't feel aprehensive. living in today, i was very aprehensive because yesterday and tomorow were surrounding me on all sides, with loud noises and bright lights and strong smells. but i didn't feel apprehensive, because i was living in today, which was surrounded by yesterday and tomorow, but it layed in the middle, and i couldn't smell or hear or see yesterday or tomorow because my ears and my nose were plugged and my eyes were shut. i knew that they were there, but i didn't have to think about them. today was today. i wonder what tomorow will be. here i am now, writing today into yesterday and basing today on what tomorow will be. today was today, but it isn't anymore. but today is just as real as yesterday and tomorow are. so as good as it feels to be living today, it will be time to live in yesterday and tomorow insdead. where should people base their minds while applying life to the moment?
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v3d4
post Oct 20, 2004, 01:57 AM
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now
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flowerfairy
post Oct 20, 2004, 01:27 PM
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but if you base your mind on "now" when applying life to the moment then wouldn't that make your past experiences and future plans insignificant?
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v3d4
post Oct 21, 2004, 01:12 AM
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no, i dont think so,

say rather that it lends them a kind of 'contextualization'
becuz yesterday is not now and tomorrow is not now and never will be
if i can make any use of the past then i can do it now,
if i plan a long term project then i begin planning now
if i learned any truth in the past then it is true now
and if i decide to go to the store i put my shoes on now

and on top of that, well, i dont want you to be sitting around feeling aprehensive all the time. the idea is that it is both useless and pointless to dwell on the past, wistfully or in any way that inhibits our awareness and abilities of the present,
and to be fearfull of tomorrow is to fill today with anxieties of imagination, while living for the future means you are not stopping to smell the flowers

when are you reading this?


now;)
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flowerfairy
post Oct 21, 2004, 02:12 PM
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so you're saying that instead of applying the ideas of the past and present to the moment, you should apply the ideas of the moment to the past and present?
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Robert the Bruce
post Oct 21, 2004, 02:15 PM
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Living in the Zen of the moment requires an appreciation of the awesome beauty of all that is and can be. It does not limit or judge any aspect of WHAT IS and it avails one to grow into being what they really are.
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flowerfairy
post Oct 21, 2004, 10:58 PM
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i don't know much about zen, but what you said about appreciating the awesome beauty of all that is and can be makes sense to me. and there is also a lot of beauty in what was. and perhaps a conjuncture of all that is the best way to apply who you are to how you live.
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Rick
post Oct 22, 2004, 12:24 PM
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Hey, fiery flower, the most important thing is to vote against the lying Republicans in November!
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Robert the Bruce
post Oct 22, 2004, 12:40 PM
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She is just 16 and it won't matter a hell of a lot anyway Rick. They both report to the same cabal and are both militarists who avoid telling people what little they know about their bosses.
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Rick
post Oct 22, 2004, 12:49 PM
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I think Kerry is a far, far, better man in every sense of the word than that liar.
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Robert the Bruce
post Oct 22, 2004, 01:30 PM
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Be that as it may. I will put Jimmy Carter ahead of either of them but he was managed too. He was a Trilateral Commission member and I knew from the first moment that he intimated he might run (shortly after the news of Watergate broke in the Jacksonville Sun where I was working.) that he would likely win.

One of my accounts was the WJXT TV station owned by the Post and Nixon put them on the list for FCC harrassment. You might remember those days when people actually thought conspiracies or plans were only for fools like me and their leaders were honest with them about there being no plans they were not told about.

Remember how Carter swore he would cut defense spending? Remember the first Afghanistan usage by Zbignieuw and the boys who sell and manufacture armaments including all the value we got from the ten trillion dollars spent on nuclear (not to mention the pollution and loss of life)?

Remember BCCI, Iran/Contra. S & L, the Hmung, Allende, Enron and a pipeline thought to be possible through Afghanistan and the huge increase in drugs like Heroin that we have seen since the recent War on Terra began?

What about SDI and HAARP?
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flowerfairy
post Oct 22, 2004, 02:05 PM
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i see absolutely no correlation between voting for kerry and the topic of this forum. but if you want to talk about voting, even if i could legally vote i wouldn't vote for kerry, and i sure as hell wouldn't vote for bush either. i honestly don't see the point of voting at all, for many reasons that i can go on and on and on about, but i'll leave it with that.
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Rick
post Oct 22, 2004, 02:08 PM
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QUOTE (flowerfairy @ Oct 21, 08:58 PM)
... a conjuncture of all that is the best way to apply who you are to how you live.

Your words suggested to me that a good way to apply who you are to how you live is to assist the world in ridding itself of a clear and present danger.
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Dan
post Oct 22, 2004, 02:31 PM
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QUOTE (flowerfairy @ Oct 22, 12:05 PM)
i see absolutely no correlation between voting for kerry and the topic of this forum.

rarely does a thread stay on topic with this group of nutters (myself included). It always seems to degenerate into a 'go with the flow' debate, where the quasichaotic conversation flow, although it distracts from the intial topic, can lead to plenty of other interesting topics.

as for voting, I believe a person need not vote if they wish not to. There is a popular misconception that we 'must' vote, and this misconception has been used in recent years (maybe longer? I wouldn't know...) by both sides to inflate their electorate. Unfortunately, inflating the electorate like this only dilutes it into a state of superficial conviction and easy manipulation which explains the emerging jerry springer-like state of politics
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Dan
post Oct 22, 2004, 02:51 PM
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QUOTE (Robert the Bruce @ Oct 22, 10:40 AM)
... it won't matter a hell of a lot anyway Rick. They (Bush and Kerry) both report to the same cabal and are both militarists who avoid telling people what little they know about their bosses.
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Rick
post Oct 22, 2004, 02:57 PM
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QUOTE (Dan @ Oct 22, 12:31 PM)
... this group of nutters.

Yet we return again and again. For me, the shoe doesn't fit, so I'm not wearing it.

Usually in the past I have said things like "if you don't care enough to inform yourself on the issues, please don't vote," on exactly the same grounds cited by Dan, but this year is unprecedentedly exceptional.
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Robert the Bruce
post Oct 22, 2004, 03:09 PM
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Alexandra Robbins - what trash! She spilled no beans and did no real research. In fact you could say she is a 'Spin Doctor' for the very group she is supposed to be doing a tell-all about.
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Dan
post Oct 22, 2004, 03:15 PM
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I don't claim that Alexandra did full justice to the story, I only wanted to give 'mainstream' evidence supporting your basic premise that both Bush and Kerry are members of the same cabal
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Robert the Bruce
post Oct 22, 2004, 03:20 PM
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That particular cabal is just the tip of the iceberg believe me.

Here is a little grist for your mill which is also mere sensationalism.

http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/story...sion=6.0.12.857
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Rick
post Oct 22, 2004, 04:36 PM
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That's a great article by Hunter Thompson. Thanks.
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flowerfairy
post Oct 22, 2004, 06:12 PM
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rick... you say "if you don't care enough to inform yourself on the issues then please don't vote", but how the hell are you supposed to inform yourself on the issues? the only way that i know of to do this is through the media, but since the majority of the media is bullshit and it is next to impossible for the average person to filter the truth from the bullshit, i think that it is a much better idea to not vote at all. as dan said, "there is a popular misconception that we must vote", and i think that the underlying reason that the media is telling us all to vote is to brainwash us into thinking that we have the freedom of choice. a lot of people think that voting is the only way to "beat the system" because it allows you to elect the people in power, but i think that the best way to beat the system is to not vote at all, because in doing so you're letting them know that their trick isn't working.
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Rick
post Oct 22, 2004, 06:38 PM
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QUOTE (flowerfairy @ Oct 22, 04:12 PM)
... it is next to impossible for the average person to filter the truth from the bullshit ...

Aren't you engaged in filtering the truth from the lies right now? The reason we got stuck with the idiot-in-chief for four years already is that too many people thought as just you are proposing. More effort spent in the filtering and less intellectual negligence are in order.
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Robert the Bruce
post Oct 22, 2004, 06:58 PM
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DearF

You say:

i think that the underlying reason that the media is telling us all to vote is to brainwash us into thinking that we have the freedom of choice. a lot of people think that voting is the only way to "beat the system" because it allows you to elect the people in power, but i think that the best way to beat the system is to not vote at all, because in doing so you're letting them know that their trick isn't working.

I say:

Thus you already know more than those who think there is freedom of choice who also get caught up in the publicity contest that is made between two people who really are NOT discussing any issues or ways to achieve real change (note the Bhagavad Gita description of the corporate condition of the human social corpse) which serves the corpserations well in their effort to keep people (not just women) barefoot and in the kitchen.
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Rick
post Oct 22, 2004, 07:04 PM
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QUOTE (Robert the Bruce @ Oct 22, 04:58 PM)
... the publicity contest that is made between two people who really are NOT discussing any issues or ways to achieve real change ...

The campaign rhetoric is not aimed at those who are already in the know, but rather at the relatively ignorant swing voters. That's why the public debate sounds so dumbed down. Kerry moderates his rhetoric to woo the swing voters. His base already knows him well enough. It's been a long time since two presidential candidates have been so different. It's also been a long time since this country has been so polarized.
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flowerfairy
post Oct 22, 2004, 07:10 PM
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so what makes you think that kerry is more honest than bush rick?
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Unknown
post Oct 22, 2004, 07:14 PM
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Most Japanese, when interviewed, said they regarded Bush as a "Failure" and believed that Kerry couldn't be any worse. I concur.
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flowerfairy
post Oct 22, 2004, 07:59 PM
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i don't see how saying that bush and kerry are failures can be backed by facts that are any more real than the facts that say that they would make great presidents.
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Robert the Bruce
post Oct 22, 2004, 09:23 PM
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Dear Rick:

You say:

The campaign rhetoric is not aimed at those who are already in the know, but rather at the relatively ignorant swing voters. That's why the public debate sounds so dumbed down. Kerry moderates his rhetoric to woo the swing voters. His base already knows him well enough. It's been a long time since two presidential candidates have been so different. It's also been a long time since this country has been so polarized.

I say:

Those relatively ignorant swing voters might be smart enough not to ote because they know none of the candidates (for all of the recent Presiddential debates going back to the 19th Century) never talk about real issues or ways to make a real change.

But I could agree with the analysis you are making if I was employed as a SPIN doctor and I did not know what the real issues are.
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flowerfairy
post Oct 22, 2004, 09:33 PM
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i completely agree with robert the bruce on this issue
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v3d4
post Oct 23, 2004, 02:34 AM
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well im glad the subject changed from that 'living in the moment' thing becuz i didnt really have any more of an answer i could easily put into words

but on this voting thing, if i could i dont kno that i would vote either, becuz it seems to me that if the game is crooked, then all the players must be dishonest. if im making some kind of logical mistake with that i hope someone'll let me kno, becuz as it stands, the game looks crooked to me.

but you can look at government in more than one way: there is the idea that people depend on their leaders to guide them, and depend on the government for support. "strong leadership qualities" they say about this or that person.
this view i think assumes that the government is a strong and independant self-reinforcing and self-perpetuating force. when you look at it that way, the only way of opposing the power structure is with overwhelming destruction, and this gives justification for war and violent revolution.
but this belief of government as a 'given' is only true when both the rulers and the ruled believe it is. obviously this conception of political power is one that the rulers like to perpetuate.

but another way to look at it is that the leader gets his political power from the people he is leading, and the cooperation of those around a ruler is absolutely essential to have any power at all. without at least passive support of the general population and agents (cabinet members, aids, legislative bodies, police, military officers, etc.) a prime minister or a president cant accomplish very much evil (or good) on his own.

hierarchical systems require cooperation at every level to work, and its directly on this principle that the various stratagies, tatics and sanctions of nonviolent political action rest. and so maybe better than voting or otherwise perpetuating the corrupt babylon system is to maintain a strict policy of nonparticipation, noncooperation and noncompliance.
-yea?
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