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Dan
post Aug 03, 2004, 07:49 PM
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just so people don't get the wrong ideas,...

when I say 'salvation', I am referring to transcendence of suffering. nothing more

when I say 'the good life', I am referring to a life where suffering has been completely transcended. I should mention that such a state cannot be reached in isolation, thus the 'whole' must transcend suffering for 'the good life' state to exist. salvation is an all-or-none proposition
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Robert the Bruce
post Aug 03, 2004, 11:18 PM
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Aristotle referred to happiness as the most we can achieve.

It is easy to be happy without all the things we obsess over. The balance of our constituent selves and the possibility of participation in creating a whole or in conjunction with that WHOLE is going to be hard to beat for enlightenment. But most people over the last little blip of human existence have bought into systems that deny the whole or any sense of ONENESS. We have seen a 5000 year 'nightmare' as James Joyce wisely stated. The thoroughly amazing thing about this - it is those elites who have told us they speak for God or are Divine Kings who in fact have used or led us into this soulful wasteland.

Barthold Niebuhr (I think it was) said that bringing something back from the past or discovering anything is a high that is akin to the greatest creativity. It is so wonderful to learn and see the way of those we have denigrated as barbarian or primitive as they frolic in the joy of adventure and oneness with Nature as they nurtured each other.
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Dan
post Aug 04, 2004, 12:56 AM
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I think the nightmare is not without value. we are literally creating through this nightmare technology that will enable a paradigm shift in the progression of consciousness. while one might be blissful in primitive slumber for a time, the life of meaning aims aims to the end of complete transcendence of suffering. without a means to this end, we hope in vain
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Unknown
post Aug 04, 2004, 04:52 AM
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QUOTE (Robert the Bruce @ Aug 03, 08:18 PM)
It is so wonderful to learn and see the way of those we have denigrated as barbarian or primitive as they frolic in the joy of adventure and oneness with Nature as they nurtured each other.

very nicely put. If the experience of oneness is available to the barbarian, and to anyone in general, then perhaps, because of its commonality, we shouldn't value it so much in and of itself, but rather value it as a part of a greater experience; namely, spirit and divine/transcendental consciousness, a state of consciousness that includes oneness as a single aspect, but that does not solely consist of the experience of oneness.

More to the point, let us choose to characterize states of consciousness in terms of the following:
1) their "oneness" (or unity or coherence or egolessness or nonduality, if you prefer).
2) their intensity, and
3) their magnitude

I'm sure there are other dimensions for characterizing states of consciousness, but these will suffice for now, and they do seem like very basic dimensions for decomposing various different states of consciousness. Now, if we consider states of "oneness", we see there are many different types, characterized by different degrees of intensity and magnitude, yet we should value those with highest intensity and magnitude. And so, while the experience of "oneness" may be available to all, including those we consider barbarians, it does not imply that they have achieved what we value in terms of intensity or magnitude of consciousness.

I know you were making an altogether different point in your post, and it's a valid point. I just wanted to point out that the "personal experience of oneness", or the experience of non-duality, does not fully characterize optimal states, or the highest states, of consciousness.
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Unknown
post Aug 04, 2004, 05:05 AM
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QUOTE (Dan @ Aug 03, 09:56 PM)
I think the nightmare is not without value. we are literally creating through this nightmare technology that will enable a paradigm shift in the progression of consciousness. while one might be blissful in primitive slumber for a time, the life of meaning aims aims to the end of complete transcendence of suffering. without a means to this end, we hope in vain

very nicely put. I'm not so sure about the complete transcendence of suffering because it's difficult to get a grasp on exactly what suffering is. I mean, wherever there is willing, there is suffering. Yet suffering does not seem synonymous with a particular type of pain, or if we say it involves "pain in general", then we run into a circular definition unless we can precisely define "pain in general".

When we have needs which are not currently met, then we suffer, and yet the expectation of meeting those needs in the future brings joy which oftentimes mixes with the suffering and oftentimes blankets it. The point being that wanting anything, or willing anything, involves suffering and oftentimes joy, and so it's a question of whether it's necessary to extinguish all wanting, willing, desiring, longing, and striving in order to extinguish suffering. Yet, do we really want to extinguish all wanting, willing, desiring, longing, and striving?

Perhaps by a "complete transcendence of suffering" you do not mean extinguishing suffering, but more like having the "strength of mind" to be aware of but not necessarily affected by suffering, in which case it sounds a lot like Stoicism and the Stoic-ideal.

Can you imagine what the "complete transcendence of suffering" would be like? Would it involve loss of willing and wanting, and if not, then what?
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Robert the Bruce
post Aug 04, 2004, 10:00 AM
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There is a hierarchy - that is true. But through all PATHS (Tao means PATH or WAY) I find the ancients knew better and all the talk of suffering is mere BS (see Milarepa or the Tibetan Tulkus approach - maybe I should put it up here). Dan is right to say will can easily be lost through manipulation but worse than that is the loss of creativity and many other things. All these Paths lead to the same stages and converge harmonically. I guess by now you know I could give two shits for the money I once had in excess. I value these things far more.

Let me ask you if you would consider yourself more enlightened or happy if you knew you could talk to (not at - that is easy) the animlas like the Australian aborigines that taught Crocodile Dundee to do what he did with the Water Buffalo?

What greater JOY is there than knowing you healed a loved one who had a major operation scheduled? How does one measure the awesome sense of WHAT IS and Divine Providence when one is into competing for the ONE PIE rather than creating MORE?
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Robert the Bruce
post Aug 04, 2004, 10:08 AM
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James was not referring to technology as he spoke about a 'nightmare'. For most of those 5000 years technology was kept in the hands of the few and like all other insights and power made subject to a hierarchy or forced plan of non-egalitarian manipulation including the destruction of soul and women who were not allowed to be educated because the Greeks and others feared their greater spiritual insight and nurturing ability to focus on the WHOLE.
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Robert the Bruce
post Aug 04, 2004, 10:36 AM
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The eastern philosophies such as Yoga have well described the benefits of 'shakti' and 'chhi' which are as the soul to the oversoul. No adept or spiritual person can deny the power or the beauty available through the 'union' (Yoga) of the soul and what is called 'Holy Spirit' or 'Aum'. The Noble laureates like Schrödinger and Wigner from the field of physics are convinced there is great meaning in the words and heart of they who always focus with breath as a vitalizing force. But is it acceptable to actually see breath or 'chhi'? Would you be regarded as a demented fool if you were to threaten a dross and physically oriented person by making note of the vagaries and imbalances in their 'energy'? Yes, it would possibly land you in an institution if you did share your vision!
"The mystic, by the help of exercises, develops and purifies the breath. Therefore to him after a certain time all things become clear in the outer and inner world. There are some who see light before them, there are some who notice colours before their view, also there are some who see forms before their sight. {There are many who sense these 'forms' and structures in other ways.} When they talk about it to others who cannot observe the phenomena, they are considered imaginative; people often laugh at them. The Sufi therefore does not speak of any such experience to others; he thinks it is not their world and they will not be able to understand, unless they also rise to that sphere.
There is no motive for speaking about one's experiences to others except pride {There may be reasons but not 'motives'.}. And if someone does this out of vanity, his next step will be exaggeration. If something makes anyone feel himself above others, it is natural for him to feel inclined to make it still more impressive. Besides, it is in human nature to wish to interest one's friends in one's pleasure, and if someone is pleased with something he sees, he will surely try to make it more interesting by a little added exaggeration.
Therefore there are these two dangers on the spiritual path of which the adept must be aware before making the journey. It is for this reason that mysticism has been made a secret cult: that it may not be for everybody to play with.” (2)
The breath of truth is there in Sufism but also the breath that mystifies and magically devolves the mind into ego is there. When they seek to seclude or separate women they use gracious terms to appeal to 'womanly fineness and delicacies of sentiment.’ (3) or they say a woman is more important than a man when she does the work of a mother. As long as the 'free' thinking person is subjected to such socializing idiom how can mankind unite his dual creative nature and perceive the greater good for all of our 'sisters'. We only prove our lack of belief in the immortality of the soul when we diminish or limit women. Because each of us is bound to become carnate or re-incarnate in the garb of womanly flesh; if for no other reason. There are many other reasons to concern ourselves with the seduction of power between sexes and the violence that forfeits all goodness and reason. But the greatest wisdom is in 'feeling' the awesome beauty of one you respect and know is at least your equal in every way. Thus their Sufi words of wisdom about 'vanity' that puts one 'above others' are suspect.
THE STILLNESS IN YOGA (UNION):
Here we have a book on Yoga telling us how to really live. It is also necessary to have this energy to really and properly go to one’s death or to make it possible to astrally or dimensionally travel to the Bardol states and places that we go when we actually die.
“It is difficult to pay attention to something if you are not interested in that thing. But it is also difficult to be interested if you are not paying attention. For example, you may be watching the best film in the world. But if you are thinking of something else and are not paying attention, you will miss the subtle nuances that make the film so good, and you won’t appreciate or enjoy it as much as you might. Interest, attention and enjoyment are obviously interrelated. Of course, if you are not interested in doing yoga at the moment, you should really be doing something else. Or you may be interested but unable to maintain a focused attention for an extended period of time. Ujjayi breathing can create that focus.
Each breath you take can remind you to be here now, to treat this moment as important, and repeatedly to affirm the fact that right now you are exactly where you want to be, doing exactly what you want to be doing. You will probably be amazed at how much energy is suddenly at your disposal the moment you realize this. When you are no longer wishing you were somewhere else, doing something different, you will discover that energy is the given and that energy is abundant. What would you expect but the fullest enthusiasm and response when your body, mind, heart, attention, and interest are all in one place? When your attention is no longer splintered and dissipated through conflict, indecisiveness, or half-heartedness, you will experience and increase in energy and feel more alive.
This is especially interesting because, unless you are an absolute beginner, you’ll find your mind tiring long before your body. When your mind begins to tire, only then does your body start getting tired. {My older brother used to run long distances and it took until his second mile or more before he reached past tiredness to a meditative state. I remember once when he came back from a five mile run with Marty Liquori and I ran alongside him for the last quarter mile. That was about all I could really run. His breathing was in sync with something I never really got to understand. He had the same sense of this in boxing and other sports, as well as the ability to superannuate his hormones and become far more powerful. He could sense the center of gravity of ‘both’ people in a fight and thus know or sense the next move before it happened. He never studied spirituality as we think of it. He did not need to, in some ways. But each person should find these second and third ‘winds’ or altered states in whatever way works best for them. I think sex was one area where we both knew this. I certainly never lost interest in sex with someone I loved unless I was drunk or for some other less than appropriate reason.} As your interest begins to flicker and wane, you become less attentive. You start thinking of other things, wishing you were elsewhere. Your energy goes elsewhere. {N. B.} You treat your body and your Yoga with less care, less respect; and automatically but not surprisingly, your body—following the dictates of your mind—loses its energy and also gets tired. But as you stay clear within yourself that this is what you want to be doing right now, you will be able to sustain interest and attention for far longer periods of time. As your capacity for attention increases, so does your energy, your actual physical energy. {Nowadays it is ‘creating’ which brings this intent to a high focus for me – and my energy still remains high despite being older and in far worse physical condition.}
Your mental attitude, therefore, is the real source of energy and enthusiasm, and you will learn this very quickly in yoga… It’s worth the small effort required to discipline yourself mentally to be attentive and present with whatever is happening each new moment.” (4)
I have spent time reading Alan Watts as part of doing these books lately. People always used to say I sounded like him. Now I understand the reason—we both lived in the ‘Zen of the moment’. But this energy that physics calls Dark Energy or Zero Point and all so many other names is still not easy to say we ‘know’ how it works in scientific terms. The fields are becoming more evident and Tesla and Faraday would be happy to see where we are going in science despite some died-in-the-wool reductivists and naysayers.
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Robert the Bruce
post Aug 04, 2004, 11:00 AM
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That evening led to the events that make this story difficult for most people to believe. At about the same time as the night before I felt Ed wanted to reach me and I told John that he was 'in touch'. Each major subject that Ed broached I told John about as best I could. ESP isn't as imperfect as words nor as specific. Knowledge is far more integrated than the cubby-holing of regurgitated pablum that most people pass between each other.
The wind would pick up and beat the tree branches to strike the roof of our cabin whenever I put up defenses to try to deflect his deeper probes. If I still didn't wish to share, it rained on our roof. It only occurred at these junctures. John thought it was someone outside with ropes and garden hoses. That is how intermittent it was. There was no rain anywhere in New England that night according to the news. It stopped when Ed was through. John was perhaps a little afraid, as he tried to exhibit total control and a knowing attitude. He wouldn't go outside to check his stupid theory. He confirmed the facts of the wind and rain for years thereafter but would never buy into my explanation of the way energies connect in levels that adepts like Ed can provide a stimulus to. Ed was not trying to affect the wind and rain. It might even be that the wind is my ally and that is why nature chose this particular way of getting its desired result.
Ed and I talked on a few occasions before I left. I was trying to get him to do more with his massive prowess and knowledge. He seemed to me like he was about to 'give up'! We talked of many things that I did not fully incorporate. Sometimes I engaged in the following kind of possibility thinking. Snails have been taught how to go through a maze. The researchers then grind them up and feed them to other snails - which have never seen a maze. These snails go through the maze as if they knew all the original snail knew. Harvard has found that over a four hundred year period that 87% of the family tree of many families engage in very similar professions and life interests. A couple of mathematicians having difficulty making a baby took fertility drugs like estrogen in England in the late 60's and their offspring was able to communicate through advanced mathematical theorems before being able to speak a language; I think it was around the age of eighteen months. Some element of the human profession lineage is environmental but there may be genetic or other information transfer.
The Minnesota Twins Study which I believe is still on-going was already in possession of impressive data about twins separated at birth and the commonality of their knowledge and experiences as well as dreams. To me this proves ESP and other connectiveness. But somehow that kind of thing isn't adequate to the psychiatrists and other reductivist 'world of seems to be' people who say 'if you can't see it, IT doesn't exist'. Ed was far more aware of the Hindu and Egyptian cosmogony and the elemental or dimensional forces than I was. He may have known more than I do today. He certainly was more in tune with the elemental forces. Rituals have a long term benefit that keeps the pathways open to the numerous other energies once met or communicated with. That is not to say that it is an open door or that a ritual performed once or even ten times guarantees the natural communion that Ed had with nature. COMMUNION has a ritual associated with it that some in the ecclesiastical constructs call 'transubstantiation'. The rituals of witchcraft that Ed engaged in brought him to a communion more real and far more useful on the physical plane of reference than the Catholic communion.
There is a Qabalistic root to Revelations and the High Mass as well as communion that many Christians would freak if they knew. The Tree of Life that orthodox Jews like the Hassidim and Sephardic Jews study has much more than just some kind of disciplined worship of a one GOD. Jungian archetypes and Campbell's anthropological influence are not at odds except by nature of cubby-holing. The Bardol Thodol or other sidpa state planes of dimensional energy out side the perceptual range of human existence are not separate from us as the old image of Heaven suggested. The cosmic soup is all around us and in the time of Christ most Mediterranean (and North American till much later) peoples set plates for the dead at the dinner table so that they might feel welcome to join this communion. People were not programmed to deny the spirit world and everyone freely associated and gave their energy to the spirits. The idea that ghosts and these spirits are EVIL is the true evil plan of those who would have us cower in fear as they exorcize these spirits in disgusting displays of power and suggestive symbology wrought with dangerous portent. Energy is neither created nor destroyed, it just dissipates and reforms. The theory of entropy has been disproved at some levels just as almost all other scientific theories are only partial. Ghost and spirit world entities require our thought energy to be able to maintain at a level of ectoplasmic or lesser visual reality.
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Rajesh
post Aug 04, 2004, 11:43 AM
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QUOTE (Unknown @ Aug 03, 03:05 PM)
An interesting question would be, is it sufficient to lose one's ego in order to experience the Self?  I think the answer is "No" because ego-less individuals, who give of themselves without regard for themselves are rather common in charities, and yet I do not think such people know anything of God or of the Self.  Thus, I conclude that losing one's ego is not sufficient in order to experience the Self (though it seems necessary). 

Note that this example above undermines the effectiveness of bhakti yoga for achieving the objective of yoga, and confirms my suspicion that bhakti yoga was created in order to quell the dull masses (just as Christianity is today in the U.S.) and to satisfy their desire to feel self-important.


People in charities are not ego-less. It is only that their ego is much subtler.

My understanding is that, it is sufficient to lose one's ego in order to experience the Self. Even the subtlest ego need to be dropped. Even a near-enlightenment person will have a thin ego (that he is close to god/Self).

"Bhakti Yoga" ("Path of Devotion" or "Path of Love" ) is regarded as the most pleasant path towards knowing "Self", for the simple reason that one keeps himself in a state of love. I guess thats is the reason why all the religion of the masses follow the "path of love(for god)"

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Rajesh
post Aug 04, 2004, 11:57 AM
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QUOTE (Unknown @ Aug 04, 02:05 AM)

Perhaps by a "complete transcendence of suffering" you do not mean extinguishing suffering, but more like having the "strength of mind" to be aware of but not necessarily affected by suffering, in which case it sounds a lot like Stoicism and the Stoic-ideal.

Can you imagine what the "complete transcendence of suffering" would be like?  Would it involve loss of willing and wanting, and if not, then what?


"complete transcendence of suffering" means "complete transcendence of ego-self".

In the absence of the ego-self, who is the sufferer???

"Willing" and "wanting" are the games played by the ego-self.
And the Big-Self, I guess, does not play "willing" and "wanting" instead it plays a different game called "happening"


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Rajesh
post Aug 04, 2004, 12:17 PM
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QUOTE (rhymer @ Aug 03, 11:46 AM)
Eternal Bliss
Eternal Love
Unity (along with diversity)
OmniScience
Omnipotence

Each of the above are terminal and limiting conditions.
I suspect that if and when attained, ones appreciation of life may be very limited.

If you have to anwer the question "What are we searching for?" in just one word, what would be your anwer?

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Dan
post Aug 04, 2004, 01:06 PM
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QUOTE
James was not referring to technology as he spoke about a 'nightmare'

nor was I. I'm sure we can both agree that this 'nightmare' is simply a reference to the unique and profound difficulties inherent in the modern human condition.
I claim that this modern human condition has been a cornerstone for building nearly all of our significant scientific and technological knowledge.
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Dan
post Aug 04, 2004, 01:17 PM
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QUOTE
Perhaps by a "complete transcendence of suffering" you do not mean extinguishing suffering, but more like having the "strength of mind" to be aware of but not necessarily affected by suffering, in which case it sounds a lot like Stoicism and the Stoic-ideal.

all I can really say is that I know what it is to suffer. This alone is sufficient to define my teleoloical vector as the intent to escape suffering. Such a vector is directed only in reference to the known of suffering, not the dreamt ideal of 'no suffering'. We can at best only hope that such an end state is reachable. My guess is that such an end state is beyond the 'event horizon' of possibiliity, like the pot of gold at the end of the rainbow. But in the neverending struggle toward this illusory pot of gold, we occasionally happen upon ephemeral greener pastures which is surely better than nothing at all.
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Robert the Bruce
post Aug 04, 2004, 03:47 PM
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Dear Dan

We can agree about technology but not about its roots. James was aware that technology and other knowledge was used against people by the elites and to what degree he understood it is hard to tell. Jung was a big fan of James as was Campbell so I can be pretty sure (because they knew) that James knew the elites used technology (including things we have yet to let out of Pandora's Box) to effect the things they do and continue to do.
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rhymer
post Aug 04, 2004, 04:18 PM
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QUOTE (Rajesh @ Aug 04, 05:17 PM)

If you have to anwer the question "What are we searching for?" in just one word, what would be your anwer?

Truth
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Dan
post Aug 04, 2004, 07:22 PM
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I just don't believe in the myths of ancient hyper-technology. At best, I can concede that rudimentary technology (by today's standards) existed and was used skillfully by 'elite' (people with the upper hand) toward the end of influencing society to favor their agendas
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Robert the Bruce
post Aug 04, 2004, 09:43 PM
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Professor Heischelheim at the U of T did a book tracing the origin of all technology to the Altaic region - long before we really kew much about those Tarim Basin Red-Heads. I have not read his book but my assistant who has his Honor's Classical History degree was one of his students.

Don't know what hyper-technology is - are you denigrating my comments about Harmonics which we are only now starting to understand as well as the builder's of the Pyramid?

Ancient Inventions by an engineer named Thorpe says anything we could do up until 1950 the ancients could do. They give a long list of examples - from artifacts. They do not go to the really advanced stuff that is evident on the caves of Hathor, in the Puranas or elsewhere. Just things like Steam engines, calendrical computers, geared mahines and better than modern harbours - I don't even think they mention Numa's electrical machines - two in the British Museum - or the printed circuit in Damascus and many other things that solid archaeology and science does provide.

Maybe I should provide you with my biblio of about ten more of my books - I have provided one earlier - and you can start researching and then talk with some modicum of factual background rather than the trite crap you and most people learned in school.
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Dan
post Aug 04, 2004, 09:55 PM
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I don't want to waste my time reading silly nonsense. I'd like to see proof that the 'ancients' were even remotely capable of producing radios, televisions, nuclear reactors, jet aircraft, etc... Show these facts instead of telling me that I lack knowledge of them due to incomplete study
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Rajesh
post Aug 05, 2004, 10:22 AM
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QUOTE (rhymer @ Aug 04, 01:18 PM)
QUOTE (Rajesh @ Aug 04, 05:17 PM)

If you have to anwer the question "What are we searching for?" in just one word, what would be your anwer?

Truth

Same here smile.gif

But, that always triggers another question: Can there be untruth.

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Joesus
post Aug 08, 2004, 07:52 PM
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QUOTE (Rajesh @ Aug 05, 03:22 PM)
QUOTE (rhymer @ Aug 04, 01:18 PM)
QUOTE (Rajesh @ Aug 04, 05:17 PM)

If you have to anwer the question "What are we searching for?" in just one word, what would be your answer?

Truth

Same here smile.gif

But, that always triggers another question: Can there be untruth.

Being disconnected or turning away from the Truth initiates multidimensional chaos in the awareness of the Ego. But it is never really disconnected from its source or the Truth.

The words that I remember from my childhood still are true.
That there's none so blind as those that will not see and those who lack the courage and say its dangerous to try.
Well they just don't know that love eternal will not be denied

-Justin Hayward-(The Moody Blues)


What is the Truth?

The truth needs no defense. If anyone remembers that there is Eternal Truth or not is irrelevant; fortunately, truth is not democratic.
Once, everyone was convinced that the earth was flat and the sun rotated around it, but no change in the orbit of our daystar ever occurred because of mankind's beliefs. Nor did our spherical globe contract to a plane to align with ignorant humans.
Truth is everywhere, always.
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rhymer
post Aug 09, 2004, 06:02 AM
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Quote:

What is the Truth?

The truth needs no defense. If anyone remembers that there is Eternal Truth or not is irrelevant; fortunately, truth is not democratic.
Once, everyone was convinced that the earth was flat and the sun rotated around it, but no change in the orbit of our daystar ever occurred because of mankind's beliefs. Nor did our spherical globe contract to a plane to align with ignorant humans.
Truth is everywhere, always.

You have told us several things (all of which I agree with) about some of the qualities of the Truth, but you have not stated what the Truth is! You also point out that Human beliefs can be woefully wrong! That is why finding the Truth is so difficult. Many think they have it, completely unaware of their false assumptions.

I should also say that I am not particularly worried by not knowing when I have the Truth.
I am quite happy with my current 'beliefs', whether they are Truthful and wholesome or not. They are the best I can achieve so far. I do continue to refine or consolidate them in light of my new experiences - this is all any of us can hope to achieve, though some may strive to rise above them (achieve Godness).
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Rajesh
post Aug 09, 2004, 11:52 AM
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QUOTE (Joesus @ Aug 08, 04:52 PM)

Being disconnected or turning away from the Truth initiates multidimensional chaos in the awareness of the Ego. But it is never really disconnected from its source or the Truth.


Truth is everywhere, always.

How does one get rid of this "multidimensional chaos in the awareness of the Ego"???

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Robert the Bruce
post Aug 09, 2004, 12:01 PM
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Traveling to the other dimensions builds confidence and reduces chaos while improving the ability to structure or DECREE the chaos that can be creatively utilized as Bucky noted when he spoke about manifesting reality as 'creative realization'.
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Joesus
post Aug 09, 2004, 01:11 PM
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You have told us several things (all of which I agree with) about some of the qualities of the Truth, but you have not stated what the Truth is!


The Truth is the absolute one. It is, and always will be while all else is a product of that.

QUOTE
You also point out that Human beliefs can be woefully wrong! That is why finding the Truth is so difficult. Many think they have it, completely unaware of their false assumptions.


That is a human truth.
A belief.

QUOTE
I should also say that I am not particularly worried by not knowing when I have the Truth.
I am quite happy with my current 'beliefs', whether they are Truthful and wholesome or not. They are the best I can achieve so far. I do continue to refine or consolidate them in light of my new experiences - this is all any of us can hope to achieve, though some may strive to rise above them (achieve Godness).


This is an example of human beliefs being woefully wrong!
Your acceptance of Truth being difficult to know and to experience coupled with your acceptance of your current beliefs creates the experience that this is as good as it can get for you in this moment. That is projected into your reality of not just this moment but the future as well.
While you wait for some moment in time to provide absolute Truth, you make no choice to be anything other than what you experience now.

This surrender to experience is not the same as True surrender to your highest desire or the will of your highest Self.
Whether you believe in God or a Higher conscious will is not important, but if you look within each desire there is a desire to be completely satisfied beyond all doubts, questions and fears of probable wrong doings and experiences, this is not the same as compromise, capitulation or complacency.
Accepting this as being the best you can do when you know that you can do more is a compromise. If you don't think you can do better, then that is ignorance of what you know underlies all of your experiences and the truth in life not just congruent with yourself but for all of humanity.

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How does one get rid of this "multidimensional chaos in the awareness of the ego"???


Change your point of reference.
The Ego is layered with beliefs and assumes it is a product of experience. The experiences are the product of beliefs and the Ego a product of consciousness to experience the manifest as it is created by belief and the influence of beliefs in desire.
You need to give the Ego a bigger taste of itself than any belief.
Once you have done that, a disciplined focus on that (not the experience but what it experienced) expands the egos awareness beyond its system of beliefs and frees it to do its real job, interpret the translation of will and manifestation of will. Desire if layered by personality will be limited by identification of (as Rhymer said) woefully wrong interpretations.
Free the mind of its beliefs and it sees and experiences life in a new form and purpose.
Instead of survival it changes to something more akin to sitting under a wish fulfilling tree.

QUOTE
Traveling to the other dimensions builds confidence and reduces chaos while improving the ability to structure or DECREE the chaos that can be creatively utilized as Bucky noted when he spoke about manifesting reality as 'creative realization'.


Without the anchor of the absolute, multidimensional awareness can be the same trap as any belief. Getting lost in the product of the absolute whether in a single dimensional awareness or multidimensional awareness still loads the mind with experience and layers the egos belief system of realities and its seperateness.
It may be slightly more expanded than the waking state of consciousness but exalted awareness is not a pathway to Truth, It is only a byproduct of it.
Although you may find more enjoyment from the deconstructing of the byproduct to get another view of what it is, you will still be far from knowing the mind that created it and all of its subtle qualities.

In other words 3 pieces of the puzzle are still no better than one piece. If you weren't the creator of the puzzle you still are only guessing at what the entire picture would be. IF you know you were the creator of the puzzle and you don't know the bigger picture then you really haven't become the creator.
If you know you are the creator and you believe you know the bigger picture then you're still limited by your beliefs and experiences.

In Truth there is no Bigger picture. The picture is always subject to change and change is consistent with consciousness. Consciousness never changes but the nature of consciousness is the product of a changing consciousness.
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Rajesh
post Aug 10, 2004, 10:47 AM
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QUOTE (Joesus @ Aug 09, 10:11 AM)
IF you know you were the creator of the puzzle and you don't know the bigger picture then you really haven't become the creator.

If you know you are the creator and you believe you know the bigger picture then you're still limited by your beliefs and experiences.

In Truth there is no Bigger picture.

1) First I thought, I am a physical body and there are things outside and inside me.
2) Then comes the realization, that everything is in my consciousness
3) Then the realization that, there is nothing like 'my' consciousness, everything shares the same consciousnes

I predominantly operate at level 1, but for occasional vist to level 3.

Is this a belief of a bigger picture???

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Joesus
post Aug 10, 2004, 12:01 PM
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QUOTE (Rajesh @ Aug 10, 03:47 PM)
QUOTE (Joesus @ Aug 09, 10:11 AM)
IF you know you were the creator of the puzzle and you don't know the bigger picture then you really haven't become the creator.

If you know you are the creator and you believe you know the bigger picture then you're still limited by your beliefs and experiences.

In Truth there is no Bigger picture.

1) First I thought, I am a physical body and there are things outside and inside me.
2) Then comes the realization, that everything is in my consciousness
3) Then the realization that, there is nothing like 'my' consciousness, everything shares the same consciousnes

I predominantly operate at level 1, but for occasional vist to level 3.

Is this a belief of a bigger picture???

You operate at all levels but the attention is on level 1 if that is what you identify with.
Many have glimpses of reality because they're never separate from it but mostly the attention is on the habitual sense oriented awareness.

The glimpses stimulate the mind and its habitual programs so that the mind tries to fit the greater experience within the limits of the known.

Beliefs are more like the sum of your experiences which support your picture of reality. Often the beliefs can influence perceptions of reality and they can act like blinders to your vision.

There is a way to see apart from the belief structure but rising above the beliefs of reality to know the difference is something only Faith can lead you through.
Through the heart which knows no reason there is a subtle voice which speaks to you of the Truth.
When it calls to you and you are ready you will follow.
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Rick
post Aug 10, 2004, 02:35 PM
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QUOTE (Rajesh @ Aug 10, 07:47 AM)
... everything shares the same consciousnes ...

Yep. Another way of expressing this is with the identity theorem. If there is no way to tell two things apart then they are the same thing.
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rhymer
post Aug 10, 2004, 02:56 PM
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Quote rajesh:-

"everything shares the same consciousness".

I need some help here folks !!!

To me, conciousness is awareness.
I am currently aware of something. applejack
Will anyone please tell me what it is I am aware of, so that I can see that others are aware of it at the same time?
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Joesus
post Aug 10, 2004, 03:24 PM
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QUOTE (rhymer @ Aug 10, 07:56 PM)
Quote rajesh:-

"everything shares the same consciousness".

I need some help here folks !!!

To me, conciousness is awareness.
I am currently aware of something. applejack
Will anyone please tell me what it is I am aware of, so that I can see that others are aware of it at the same time?

No no no. Who is the I that is aware? Awareness is more like the focus of a lense. If it is a microscopic lense it would miss the stuff outside of its range as would the opposite miss what it is not capable of focusing on.
Beliefs are like the mind twisting the lense to see specifics.

Consciousness is the mind behind the lense which is capable of altering the focus to suit the desire to see what it will.

What you are aware of is what you put your attention on.
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